The Voice Director Presents: Let’s Talk Voiceover

Haven't thought of play-by-play or live announcing of events as voice acting?.  Brian Lohnes possesses, cultivates, and draws from all of the same set of skills when he calls NHRA broadcasts for Fox Sports: musicality, breathing and vocal care, building drama and emotion, storytelling.  And, since there's rarely a script, he does it all on-the-fly.  Not only that, he runs a school to grow and teach the next generation of play-by-play announcers.  Possibly a new career angle? Sit back and listen!

A force of nature.  Inspirational.  Wickedly talented.  That's what colleagues say about Debra Wilson.  She's gone from improv comedy on the stage to sketch comedy on television to movies and one of the most sought-after voice actors in the industry.  Mad TV, The Weakest Link, Saints Row, Diablo, Destiny 2, Ratchet & Clank, World of Warcraft, Hearthstone...literally too many to list.  What stands out more than her credits is her passion and her love of the craft.   Get ready, because a conversation with Debra is a full-contact ride. Debra Wilson: ... I've been with CESD almost two decades. Randall Ryan: Wow. Yeah. That's you and Dave Fennoy. Debra Wilson: My crush, by the way. One of my crushes. Randall Ryan: Yeah. I think there's a “get in line” on that one. Debra Wilson: Yeah. Yeah…mmm. Randall Ryan: (laughs) Debra- Debra Wilson: I'm going to put you on the spot, ‘cause you're in there too, Randall Ryan, and you know that. Randall Ryan: Go ahead, put me on the spot. What are you putting me on the spot for? Debra Wilson: I just told you. I said I'm going to put you on the spot because you're in there too.  And you know that already. Randall Ryan: Oh, that I have a crush on Dave? Debra Wilson: No, you idiot. Gillian Brashear: (laughs) Oh, that was priceless. Who? Me? Little ol’ me?  Little ol’ Randall? Stop it! Debra Wilson: Thank you, Gillian. Thank you Goddess, for getting it.   THEME MUSIC Randall Ryan: A couple of weeks ago, I was speaking with one of the best and most well-known voice actors in the industry, and Debra Wilson's name came up.  “She has to be the best in the industry. I'm not even sure who's second.”  That's what this person said. I got to tell you, there is no higher praise in when your colleagues speak privately about you in those terms. Here's my story. The very first time I worked with Debra, she had a character who was supposed to speak an unintelligible language, and she was inventing this. The thing is that she hadn't even seen the script because it was under such tight NDA.  So, the first time she saw it was when she came into the studio. She not only did such a great job inventing this, and in a ridiculously short period of time, she set the bar for what everybody else was going to do with this particular race of people anytime that there was a character there.  And oh, by the way: she also voiced two other characters for the same game in the same session that had nothing to do with those. Years as a cast member on Mad TV, Savathun and Destiny 2, HALO, Saints Road, Diablo, Cosmonious High…she has way too many credits to even attempt a synopsis. It's better if you just hear from the fascinating person that is Debra.   So, let's talk voiceover, Debra Wilson. Debra Wilson: Yes. Let's talk voiceover Randall Ryan. Let's talk voiceover, Gillian. Gillian Brashear: Let's do. Debra Wilson: You need your own island. Gillian Brashear: Okay, great. I'll take it. Debra Wilson: Yeah, Gillian's Island.   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: And that's how it begins, Gillian. That's how it begins. Gillian Brashear: I'll take it. (laughs) You can come, too! You can visit my island, both of you. Debra Wilson: Yay. You have internet? Gillian Brashear: I will. It's called a pigeon. Debra Wilson: Call me when you do. Randall Ryan: I never have asked you this.   Debra Wilson: Uh huh.   Randall Ryan: You, at least to my consciousness came up more as doing comedy and especially doing sketch stuff. You don't do any of that anymore. Debra Wilson: It's not that I don't do it, it's just that it hasn't really come up. And it hasn't been a venue that's come up where it's like, wow, here's this offer. Wow, I want to create this type of show. Or, wow, let's go up and do some standup. Or, wow, let's host this event and bring out comedians. So there just hasn't been the opportunity to do that kind of stuff live more than anything else. And of course, you have to include, in that equation, the pandemic. Randall Ryan: So, for you, it was never a conscious, like you know, I think I'm done with this and I'm just going to go do this other thing. VO became kind of a venue for you that essentially filled your plate. Debra Wilson: Yes. And then, on-camera stuff started becoming less and less because I knew I was moving in a different direction. And I began to choose moving in a different direction and started getting tattooed, which was a subconscious as well as a very, very conscious decision creatively, which signified not being on camera as much or not being on camera at all. Randall Ryan: So, why? Whether you were actually eschewing it or not, why did you just say, "You know what, I think I'm either done with this or I'm not going to pursue it." And you moved into what, really, from an acting perspective is, almost a completely different realm. Debra Wilson: No, it's actually the same realm because people have a tendency to believe that voice acting is not acting. And so, it's the exact same realm, I just don't have the lights, camera, the makeup, the wardrobe, but I'm using my mind and I'm using my imagination, I'm using my third eye.  And I'm being able to be quite an amazing storyteller because I choose to delve into what I'm doing no differently than what I'm doing on front of camera. I may have cameras and stuff in front of me, but I've got a mic in front of me, and either way there is a story that needs to be told.  And at the end of the day, nobody wants to hear it, everybody wants to feel it.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: And so, being able to create from that space easily and more openly and more giving, and being able to bring myself to the table is really, really wonderful. And creating all of those varying choices.  Because no matter what, even if you're in a booth, you are never having a monologue. It's never a monologue, unless it specifically is written as a monologue, it's never a monologue, it's always a dialogue. It's always a conversation.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm. Debra Wilson: Even if the other being, other creature, other sentient thing that takes up space is not speaking, their emotions speak, their body language speaks. And so, you're still using your third eye no matter what. You get a chance to create that, and you get a chance to experience that and bring yourself to the table on both realms. So, it is no different. It's absolutely no different.  In fact, sometimes, it's even more challenging for me in voiceover emotionally because I go so deep. I bring up a lot of stuff, which is really wonderful and cathartic at the same time. But I'm very proud that I make sure that my most authentic voice of who I am begins to be a part of the being that gets the chance to come forth through me, through my voice, through my body, through my heart, through my third eye, to be able to have their story told.  And I'm very grateful that I'm that vessel for that. It just so happens that voiceover became so prominent before letting go, before me saying, no, I don't want to do this anymore. Or, hey, I'm moving away. Voiceover had already become prominent at that point. And, the realms of voiceover were a full spectrum: ADR, looping, book on tape, animation, straight announce, promo announce for NBC. And most recently, I'm the first woman and the first person of color to voice two major attractions, one at Disneyland and one at Disney World Orlando, the first one being the Jungle Cruise. Gillian Brashear: That's great. Randall Ryan: Wow. Gillian Brashear: That's fantastic, Debra. Debra Wilson: So, that's pretty significant. Disney has become so inclusive and they said we're going to flip the script to a certain extent in the narrative slightly. And if Albert Awol, traditionally, goes off on his wild adventure and leaves his capable sister to do it because they know each other and he trusts her with the radio station, then you get Skipper Missy, darling.   Gillian Brashear:(laughs)   Randall Ryan: (laughs) Debra Wilson: And most recently, at Disney World, which is a huge, I cried, I bawled when I found out I booked this, which is a significant thing for me.  After 40 years of using Tom Kane who had been doing the voice of the Monorail system, he's the Monorail captain, he's been doing it for 40 years, now it's me.     Randall Ryan: Wow.   Debra Wilson: So, I am now the new Monorail captain. I have recorded all of the dialogue. It's a lot of work and a lot of paperwork, but it's going to be interesting to see all these people from around the world in my mind's eye, or who live in the area and traditionally come, to hear a woman's voice. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome aboard. Gillian Brashear: That's amazing. I'm so excited for you for that. Debra Wilson: Thank you, goddess. Thank you, goddess. Yeah, it's pretty prolific. So, I run the gamut. Plus, I do a lot of creature voices for video. I worked on a film directed by Philip Noyce, Australian director who directed Clear and Present Danger. It's a film that you can find on Amazon Prime and it's called the Darkest Hour. And Naomi Watts is the only physical person in there. I think there's one snippet of a physical person, but you only see him from a rear-view mirror, only his eyes. And I play the 911 officer.  But the character's name is Dedra Wilkinson. And Dedra is spelled D-E-D-R-A.   Gillian Brashear: Uh huh!   Debra Wilson: And my name is spelled D-E-B-R-A. And her last name begins with W-I-L and so does mine. So, I like to believe in kismet. Randall Ryan: For many years now, I've made it a point of sticking around to watch the credits in movies and watching the extra voices and things of that nature. Debra Wilson: All the loop groups. Randall Ryan: Right, and it's amazing how many times you come up. I was like, "Oh, I know her." (laughs) Debra Wilson: (laughs) It's a lot of fun. And also, when Jane Lynch was hosting the revised version of The Weakest Link on NBC, I was the game show announcer for that. And Steve Harvey had a judge show. I don't know if it'll come back for another season on ABC prime time, and I was the court announcer on that, but it was all voiceover.  And so, I'm really digging voiceover to the point in which I really don't have the same passion or drive for on-camera because of the way I look. And at my age, it's easier to hire someone who looks like a grandma or a senior than to say, "Okay. Well, she doesn't have any hair and she has tattoos and we need to cover her up."  And so, it's easier to hire somebody who already looks the part than to cover me up. When it was all comedy, it was no problem covering me up, I wasn't nearly as tattooed. But when I say that I'm tattooed, I'm tattooed from the tips of my fingers all the way through my neck, down my entire body, to the tops of my feet. Gillian Brashear: Wow. Debra. Debra Wilson: I have a full body suit. Gillian Brashear: Wow. Randall Ryan: But I would say this, and Gillian's going to be able to speak to this more than me because she's got an on-camera career. But…   Gillian Brashear: Hmm.   Randall Ryan: …you don't look like anybody that I know. And I understand we're all doing voiceover. So, all of us kind of live in this world where nobody tends to know what we look like. I think you're extraordinarily striking.  Part of it is that you don't look your age. You don't look anything like what something is supposed to be.  And so, it would just seem to me that if this was something that you really wanted to pursue, which is why I'm guessing it's something that you don't. so it's obviously not something that you're even pursuing. At least, that's my guess. Debra Wilson: Correct. It's not anything I'm pursuing. However, if someone said, listen, I have an independent film. There's no money in it, but it's a passion project of mine. For me, it is the flip side of the same coin as voiceover. And if someone is saying, “I really hope that you will come in and help tell this story. This story is very important to me. And it speaks volumes to the world.”  In a heartbeat.  In a heartbeat for stuff like that.  As long as it's a project that I go, it's a passion project. I want to steep myself into this role and allow this being to come forth and tell their story. But they're far and few between, because a lot of the auditions that come in, and those are far and few between to begin with, are the sassy black grandmother.   Giilian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: The sassy black friend.   Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson:  The girlfriend who is friends with the others who went to college together, and one of them is dying of cancer, and they play music and they dance.  And one of them married a rich guy, but he's a ne'er-do-well and cheats on her.   Gillian Brashear: (chuckles)   Debra Wilson: And so, they all get together to be friends again, and you know, that kind of stuff. But I did a lot of that when I was on Mad TV, ‘cause those are real sitcom characters.  And some things never change in television.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: It has to a certain extent in how it's shot.  Things like Modern Family, those amazing characters, they're all layered.   Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: But it's still a sitcom, and it still has its parameters.   Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: And so, because of those parameters, I realize in voiceover I don't have any parameters.  The only parameter I can set is a limitation for myself, and I choose not to do that. And so, no one cares whether I'm a little boy or if I'm a dragon. No one says, "Is that dragon black? Is that dragon a woman?" Unless it's specifically in the specs that way, but nobody cares.  And as I get older, I'm working more than I've ever worked. I'm 60 and the momentum is only growing. I'm also Daisy Duck for Disney. Randall Ryan: Are you really? (laughs)   Gillian Brashear: (laughs) Debra Wilson: I know. Who would have thunk it when you look at me, right? And you hear this voice and (as Daisy Duck) “all of sudden and this comes out. Really? Quackers. Oh, Donald!”   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: But it was done by the prolific and amazing Tress MacNeille, who I know both of you know. But when it comes to the show that she was doing initially for the first season called Mickey Mouse Funhouse on Disney Junior, she said, "I don't want to do a second season. I'm so busy with so many other things."  And Daisy Duck was a huge commitment because sometimes it branches out into other things that are Disney-oriented.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson:  And it has for me already. So, it's been very, very lovely. And it was a grueling audition process because I don't do soundalikes. And initially, they wanted someone who sounded very much like Tress MacNeille doing Daisy Duck, and that's a tall order.  Because Tress MacNeille is fucking brilliant, number one. And number two, to sound like somebody who's doing something else as opposed to sounding like them. And I kept thinking, I don't do soundalikes. I don't enjoy soundalikes unless it's Whoopi Goldberg, who I have down, Oprah Winfrey, who I have down, and Viola Davis, who I have down.  But our timbres are all in those same registers.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: I didn't enjoy the process. The first time I did it it took me three hours to get through a single audition and sent it to my agent. And then the second time I got a call back, and the first thing I thought was "Why?"  It wasn't a joyful “Hey, guess what? You got a call back!” It was like, Ugh. So, now, I have to go through a grueling process again of sounding like a woman who sounds like Daisy Duck.   Randall Ryan: (laughs)   Gillian Brashear: (chuckles)   Debra Wilson: I did the call back and I went, okay, I don't do soundalikes, but guess what? Here's the positive.  At least I got through a second audition, a call back for a soundalike and I don't do soundalikes and I don't enjoy soundalikes, and yet I got a call back.  That's really great. That's the end of that. That's what I did. I wiped my hands and went, that's great.  Until I got a third callback, and I went, "What the fuck?" It was not joyful.   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Randall Ryan: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: But when I went in the third time, I was like, "Oh, fuck." And I didn't mean to tank the second audition, but I showed up an hour and five minutes late.   Randall Ryan: Mmmm.   Debra Wilson: I was on my motorcycle and I took a route.  And I was like, "Oh, I'll find my way around Burbank this way. I'll go this way."   Randall Ryan: Mmm..   Debra Wilson: And I didn't know how I ended up. And I came in and was like, "I am so sorry. I really am." And I really was. But they were gracious. The folks at Disney were so absolutely gracious, like they really wanted to hear me.  And the last time I went in, of course, I was on time and I was like, "Okay, just go through it again and this is going to be it. They're going to choose someone else. So, just go in and do what you have to do. You've done it twice already. This is like a third tooth being pulled. You're used to it. No, no, we can't, here we go."   Randall Ryan: (laughs) Debra Wilson: And it was different. Something clicked. And it was one of the most fun auditions. It was silly. I bunny-hopped through it. It was amazing. And my amazing agent, Pat Brady, who has a close relationship with the Disney Corporation who is now retired, had a retirement party.  And someone from Disney was there and said, "I want to tell you something, I'm a producer on the show and congratulations, we wanted you. But what ended up happening is Disney corporation wanted that Tress MacNeille sound. They were afraid of losing that and losing audience.”  But they didn't know what they wanted. So, their conformity was the Tress MacNeille template.   Randall Ryan: Mmm hmm.   Debra Wilson: But not just Tress MacNeille, Tress MacNeille as Daisy Duck template, which is a tall order. And so, he said, "Well, what is Daisy Duck? What is Daisy duck? Who is Daisy Duck?  And all these Daisy Ducks that came before Tress. What is it to the corporation as opposed to this person that didn't exist when Daisy Duck was around? So, what is Daisy Duck? If you had to describe her, you would describe her by personality, but not by a person, not a human being.  You're making her a human being. You're making Daisy Duck Tress MacNeille, and it should be the other way around. So, who is Daisy Duck? And can this person, Debra Wilson, be Daisy Duck in all of those characteristics that has always been Daisy classically, and the stuff that has been written for Tress MacNeille, in general, in how we've kind of evolved Daisy Duck just a smidge from the 1950s and 60s, can we just update her?”   And so, when they said, "Okay, here's what you do. Here's Daisy in this situation,” and I had to do some soundalike stuff.  And then, they stopped the soundalike stuff almost immediately and went straight into “let's do an episode.”   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: “Here's how Tress does it. We're not asking you to do Tress. We're just asking you to be Daisy: sassy, fun, all of those things, in this register though.  The only thing we require from Disney is this particular register because we don't want it to match with Minnie Mouse.”   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: And so, I did. And then, I became Daisy. And they let me become Daisy. And Daisy became me. So, the next person who does Daisy Duck, it will always be prolifically, and it will always be classically, what they want for Daisy Duck.  And can you fit the role and fit the bill as Daisy Duck with these characteristics in these specs?   As opposed to you have to sound like Debra Wilson, she did it before and you have to sound like the Debra Wilson as Daisy Duck.   Randall Ryan: Mm Hmm.   Debra Wilson: (as Daisy Duck) So, now, Daisy sounds like this, but not too far Tress MacNeille. Quackers, really?  Oh, Minnie! Mickey! Oh, Donald, really?”   Randall Ryan: (laughs) Gillian Brashear: So did you do Daisy before you did your bits for the Monorail and the Jungle Cruise? Debra Wilson: I've been doing Daisy Duck for about a year now.   Gillian Brashear: Mm.   Debra Wilson: Because what they did is they said, "Well, we've got a lot of catching up to do. Since we know that Tress MacNeille is no longer interested in doing the series, we've got a lot of catching up to do.”  So every recording session, usually on Fridays, was five to six episodes per Friday.  And along with music. And I had to sing in Daisy Duck's register.   Randall Ryan: Oh, yeah.   Debra Wilson: Which is a challenge for me with my voice. But, I managed it because it was Daisy and I was like, "Whatever, you're not you. So, stop thinking about you're a register. You're Daisy." And if you can talk like Daisy, then you can sing like Daisy, and you will. And I sing. So, it's like, you got this.  You got this. Randall Ryan: You know, Gillian, you were saying something to me, I don't even know how long ago it was. But you said something about Debra and just the way that she throws herself into something that's a little bit different than somebody else, I don't remember exactly what you said with that. Gillian Brashear: Well, what I find so interesting about working with you Debra, and also listening to you talk is just the total abandoned into the depths that you're willing and wanting to go, and I think that's really interesting. So, I think the conversation that we had been having, Randall, was that sometimes people do need to be, I don't want to say led, because I don't know that that's particularly fair, but allowed.  Here, you can do this and you can go farther. And there's just more to do with the characters. I think it's rare sometimes when you hear someone approach a character and you go, "Wow, I had never considered that" or "That is so really interesting. I actually have to stop and listen to it for a bit just to let it all soak in all the levels of what is happening.”  And that sort of gets in a nutshell of what happens for me when I'm working with Debra. (laughs) Debra Wilson: (giggles) I call it immersion and possession, because I need that being to take over. So, before I start any session I will ask a million questions, and then I will talk to them as that person; that person will come through me.  It really is like an immersion and possession.  And that person will come through…   Gillian Brashear: Mmm.   Debra Wilson: …and they'll tell you a moment about their lives. And then, they'll begin. It works for two reasons: because I allow that possession to take place, that person is completely aware of their life. They're conscious, they're now a sentient being in their life, and they're just using my body to do it.  And the booth director and the game devs or whoever's listening in can also go, "Yes, we like this voice. Let's raise the register. Let's give her more of this. Let's give her more of that." And so, it works as a dual purpose. But once I'm involved, I have an emotional aspect to this life, a personal aspect to this life, a family aspect.  And what I'll do is I will break down that story immediately in that booth, as I am introducing myself. And I'll tell you about my life, where I've been, why I am, who I am. So, I never go approach anything without asking why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why? Because all those details are important because a lot of people don't pay attention to it. But emotionally, they register that vibration…   Gillian Brashear: Mmm…   Debra Wilson: …because it comes from a reality and it becomes from an authenticity.   Gillian Brashear: Yeah.   Debra Wilson: So how you're looking at somebody and how somebody looks at you, you can't hide it.  Just like body language.  You can't hide it.   Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: And so, it's really, really important because body language should be used, because it says I'm not hiding my authentic being in this moment. I'm giving it a door opening, so that this other being can come through and use it and tell their story.   Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: They don't have their own emotion fully because they came from a page.  But they have mine, and they go, "Yes, I can relate to that." So, I'm going to take that and borrow that, and I'm going to cut myself open with your past. And that's how I work. Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.  That makes a lot of sense to me because I am listening when I'm in the director mode, but also as an actor, too. I'm always listening for that tone or that scintillation that is the sound of something being true. You just know it when you hear it like, aha and that's it. That's the one, that's where everything comes together: the reality, the truth of the character, and the emotion drops in. And then, suddenly, it's alive. Randall Ryan: There are actors that do this. It's kind of like Gillian saying there are some people that need to be led and that's not really fair,  because that's NOT really fair. But you seem to have the ability to both simultaneously allow yourself to be very vulnerable with what you impart, with what you do, with what you allow to come to the table. Randall Ryan: And yet, you never lose yourself. It's an interesting juxtaposition. What is the mechanism that allows you to essentially throw all of yourself onto the table and throw yourself into a character, and allow all those personal vulnerabilities to come forth in the character and then still just be able to turn on and say, "Thanks. That was fun guys." And walk away. Debra Wilson: Sometimes, I do have a bit of a challenge walking away immediately, and they say, "Hey, you okay? You need a break?" And then, I just recalibrate. So, sometimes it does take me a minute. Even if the scene takes three seconds, four seconds, where I'm saying one word.  But the one word is very, very loaded like a no or a yes or anything else. And so, it's not a throwaway, it means everything. Because one word can be the emotional stretch and expanse of years of experience or years of pain in that one word. And so, my job is to serve the project.  Initially, I'm a storyteller. And people say voiceover and I say, yes. But first and foremost, before being a voiceover artist or a voice actor, I am a storyteller. And so, it's important for me to tell your story. And so I'm here to serve your project. And I liken it like this. You hire a babysitter and you go out for the night. And the babysitter calls their friends and lets the kids run around, and lets them do what they want while their friend comes over, and they drink a beer out of the fridge. And right before their guardian comes home, they put the kids in bed.  They wash their face quickly, brush their teeth and say “Shh. now, pretend you're sleeping.”  And so, they don't really pay attention. But an au pair says, "I will treat your children like they're my children." So, there is no phone that I have with me. No one is allowed over.  I read with them, I engage them, I help them with homework, I play with them, I stimulate them.  We watch something that is child-friendly, that is of your approval. I give them snacks that is of your approval. I bathe them. I put them in bed.  I read them a story. I tuck them in. And you come in to do the rest by tucking them in or seeing that they're asleep, safe and sound. And so for me, it's the same thing with somebody's story. When they want to tell the story, whether it's a video game or an animation or anything, I have to be your au pair.  I have to make sure you get everything you want so that you go “this is purely my vision. And little did I know that this would be the voice.”  Because a lot of times in voiceovers people are like, and especially with commercials, I don't know until I hear it.   Randall Ryan: Yeah.   Debra Wilson: You know, they can describe something, but it's like, mmm…I'll know when I hear it.  And so, my responsibility is when I book something to be able to support and help you carve out that thing that is definitive and why: the emotion, the psychology behind it, and ask you every question to go “why,” so that being comes to life and you go, "Fuck, that's what I’m…that’s it.  That's it." So I ask questions, and I make sure that I dig into myself on that psychological level and on that emotional level and that cutting-that-self-open level, so that that being becomes so three-dimensional that you go, "This is what I had in mind. And now it's off the paper."   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm. Debra Wilson: It's jumped off the paper, it's jumped off the pages and it's exactly what you want.  Which makes it easier when you're directing me, because now, that is a full body that has depth and breadth. You can go, "I want this, I want this. I don't want this. I don't want this. Try it this way, try it this way, do it this way, do it this way. Don't do it this way, blah, blah, blah." And that being is just there to tell their story. And they know that you are guiding them and helping them tell their story. They know that directors and game developers are there to help them tell their story so that they can be alive. And so, it's easier for me to be directed by people who are like, "I want this, I don't want this. I want this. I don't want this. Okay, do this, do this, do this, do this."  Because it's not a dictation to me. It's not a dictatorship. It's a matter of, this was your baby. And now, I am here to serve your project. And in serving your project, I want to be all that you expect and all that you want and all that you need, and beyond that. So that you go, I'm so proud of this.  I look forward to doing this. And everyone goes, "Yes, this role is fulfilled." And it becomes something that's important. I did a video game and I had no idea how massive and internationally prolific this game is, and it's called Destiny and Destiny 2.   Randall Ryan: Right. Debra Wilson: I had no idea who Savathun was. I didn't play the game. I don't know anything about it. I've heard the title. And then, when I got the role, I still didn't know. And so, I was just bringing the humanity to this being because people have the tendency to use the word evil; she's evil.  And I'm like, well, I don't believe that anyone's evil.  I believe that they have an intention that you just don't understand. She has to be that loner who does what she needs to do in order to reach a particular goal, whether people understand it or not.  And that, in and of itself, has an emotional toll on a being, to know that no one is with them. And so, they turn their back on everything as everything is turned their back on them. So, instead of being just this evil, non-emotional being, the psychopath, it's because you have not been loved.    Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: And so, I'm always bringing those human elements because I don't care if you're playing the sentient being or a tree, the moment it speaks it has human emotions. The moment it speaks!  And therefore, there isn't any role that I can't bring my emotional and psychological self to. Randall Ryan: I agree. Debra Wilson: This game went nuts when it came out, because it came out on Tuesday, 2/22/22.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: And I got massively solicited on Cameo to do cameos as this Savathun. And a fan had to tell me the lore of Savathun and the lore of Destiny and how it's played, and the massive groups that play it across the world in clans.  And it was really powerful, and it was really wonderful. And some people even came to me on Cameo, some people like, "I'm going through something and I need the strength of Savathun. Would you do her voice and strengthen me and somehow, or offer advice or share with me?"   Randall Ryan: Mm hm. Debra Wilson: And so, it's been a great vehicle that people have emotionally used this character to go, "I need something in my life," or "I feel like I'm missing something and I want to connect."  And I've been able to take what I do in the booth outside of my booth and authentically share with people. And that to me was the greatest gift of all. Randall Ryan: Were you the original person doing Savathun or did you replace somebody else? Debra Wilson: There was no Savathun.  Savathun had been talked about in Destiny lore for 10 years, 10 years. Randall Ryan: So, you are the original? Debra Wilson: Yes. There's just been dialogues and monologues of Savathun, but she had never been a playable character and no one had ever really seen her. So, she's in the lore. But this was the first time, Destiny 2 The Witch Queen was actually, oh, my God, we get a chance to really see Savathun because she's all throughout the lore. But now, we get a chance to see who she is and what her voice is. Randall Ryan: Interesting. Interesting. The other question I kind of have along the same line of the first one was: given that you at least, again, to the consciousness of someone like myself came up through comedy, what was your love first? Was it literally just acting and storytelling? Was it comic? Was it just performance in general? Because you also sing, all of that.  What took you from childhood, essentially, to this is what I'm going to do. Debra Wilson: You're absolutely right. It was acting and storytelling. I loved being other people. I loved being other people for reasons that had been dark, because of childhood trauma. And I loved being other people because I was fascinated with how I could glom on and absorb.  I was relentless when it came to glomming on something and absorbing.  I learned how to do an English accent by the time I was like five years old.   Randall Ryan: Wow.   Debra Wilson: My parents thought it was a hoot..   Randall Ryan: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: …because it was a Diet Rite soda commercial, and the woman on the commercial was British.  And I glommed onto wanting to do accents. And because of falling in love with that English accent from that commercial, I wanted to watch The Monkees for Davey Jones. And I wanted to watch H.R. Pufnstuf, and anything that had a British accent.  British comedies, the Beatles, any interviews with people that were Brits.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: Any British movie.  So, for me, I was glomming on and I glommed onto character actors. I glommed onto those that were the bad men of character actors in the 1970s and '80s. I had to be the only one my age, who was 13, 14 years old, who would buy a TV Guide.  And back then, TV Guide would do a cast list after it did the synopsis.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: And I would circle the cast lists to see who these actors were and watch them. And I realized for me at an early age psychologically, I was also the only kid that I knew that had a subscription to Psychology Today at the age of 14.   Randall Ryan: (laughs) Gillian Brashear: (laughs) Who were some of those favorite actors that you circled? Debra Wilson: Oh, my God, William Smith, Anthony Zerbe. Oh, my God. They're just so many of them. Juliet Lewis's father, Jeffrey Lewis. I was obsessed with him. I was also obsessed with JB Perry. JB Perry turned out was Matthew Perry's father. Robert Pine, who turns out that he's Chris Pine's father.  I was obsessed with Robert Pine. Kevin Spacey, he did a series called Wise Guy on CBS, and it was a recurring role for a whole season.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: And he was a psychopath and it was amazing. And so, I loved watching these psychopaths because I knew that there was emotional and psychological damage.  There was a kinship for me because I felt my own emotional and psychological damage. Of course, they acted out on it, and they were my escape. Their pain was so great that they did what they did. Gillian Brashear: Fascinating. Were there women as well? Debra Wilson: Not so much women because it was the '70s and the '80s.   Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: More than anything else, you had Wonder Woman, you had Charlie's Angels.   Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: So, more than anything else, you had women that were heroes and women that were badasses.   Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: Women's lib, all of it, you know?  And then, you had women in comedy who I fell in love with because of what they do. Ruth Buzzi!   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: Joanne Worley…   Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: …who became heroes. Carol Burnett!   Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: It was just... I was obsessed. Lucille Ball. So, for me, they were the other spectrum of not just comedy but heroes.  They were prolific.   Joan Rivers, who I ended up working with, on a series with her. People like that who caught me as women who were coming to the forefront, and who had to deal with the men who said, "Women aren't that funny."   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: They said it behind closed doors while they were smoking their cigarettes. And it was general knowledge in the industry that women weren't funny; that's why women never got the chance.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: But yet, Joan Rivers still was the first woman to ever host the Tonight Show.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: It was brilliant. And her symbol was always a bee. And the reason her symbol and jewelry and everything else was a bee was because according to the physics and the physiology of a bee, its body weight is too massive for its small wings, proportionately, so it's not supposed to fly.  But tell that to the bumblebee that's already flying.   Randall Ryan: Right.   Debra Wilson: And her thing was, you can't tell a bumblebee that it can't fly. And that's what she was, and that's what she was symbolic of. She was an amazing human being and I loved working with her.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: And she also cut herself open in order to share.  I was her audience warmup as well.   Gillian Brashear: Wow!   Debra Wilson: And because I volunteered. I said, "I want to do the warmup. I want to do the warmup." And what I did was I memorized everybody's name in the audience. So that by the time she came ou, I introduced them individually.   Randall Ryan: (laughs) Gillian Brashear: That is fascinating. Debra Wilson: And here's the also thing about kismet: my manager at the time's name was Joan Rosenberg. And Joan River's married name is Joan Rosenberg. Randall Ryan: I did not know that. Debra Wilson: And so, at the audition she just said, (as Joan Rivers) "Oh, I like her. Hire her. Yes. Oh, she's the one. She's the one.{   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: “I love her already. She's great." And that's how that came to be. Because when I auditioned, I was doing improv. For me, it was like, it doesn't matter whether I get this.  And I think going into acting, it wasn't a matter of where's my agent and what do I have to do? And I'm going to get this and I'm going to make this. It was a very lackadaisical attitude that I've always had and I still have. Like it'll come, and you just be yourself and have a good time. And that's a rarity because most people do the hustle thing.   Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: And I have to admit, I never hustled. I never. I am 60 years old and I never had to hustle for work. When it didn't come I had to let it go. And that was a psychological and emotional challenge for me.  But I never tried to hustle for work and get that back. Never. And so, when the Joan Rivers thing happened, it was, I don't care if I get this. Right now, my audition is with Joan Rivers on a stage here at CBS Studios in New York on 11th Avenue and 57th Street.  The lights are on, I'm dressed for the audition and they're shooting my audition like it's a TV show.  Fuck it. I'm on TV with Joan Rivers right now. I don't give a fuck if I work this show!   Randall Ryan: (laughs)   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: I already have this. This moment is it for me. I did not care. This moment was it.  This moment was the job.  And if I do a great job here, I don't care because even if I don't book it, I don't go “what did I miss? What did I not do?”  I'm leaving it on the floor. I'm spilling it all on. And because I had been doing improv in New York in comedy theaters with troupes, she could throw stuff to me and I would throw it right back.  And I would joke with her and there was no audience there, but I would go to the cameraman, "Hi, what's your name? Okay. Try this, watch one. How did blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And then, you had to read a prompter, and then “Back to you Joan.”  And so, I played with her. It was Joan Rivers!   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: So, I conversed with her. It was never like, "Hi, Debra." And I was like, "Hi, Joan." No, "Hey, Joan, how are you today? We're going to have a great show, aren't we? Well, actually, you're going to have a great show. Aren't you? Okay, well I'm looking forward to it." And she's like, "Tell us about this, watch Debra.”  “Sure."  And I could sell ice to Eskimos at that point…   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: …because it was pretend.  It was the biggest fun pretend. That was the first time I went “this is amazing. And if I don't get it, that's fine.”  And I remember doing voiceovers in my friend's basement because I would hear these radio commercials with voiceovers and I would go and find magazines, and then read all of the text from the magazines, from the ads in the magazines.  And I would ask my friend: listen, you have a studio, a music studio. Would you just put music behind this and then put it on a cassette for me? And I would listen going, did I sound good enough, like it would be a real spot?  Yup. Okay. I'm done.  So, I never pursued it. But it was a matter of: could I be as good as someone I hear?  And did I feel it? And did it work? And I was very meticulous back then as well, because I wanted to sound just like everyone else. I wanted to be as professional as everyone else. And when I sounded that way, I was done.  Same thing with Joan Rivers. Randall Ryan: So, you talk about the hustle. You talk about the not-doing-the-hustle. Debra Wilson: Correct. Randall Ryan: How did the work initially come about? Because very few people, if lucky as even the right word, get that kind of  lucky where there's just enough work, especially initially, that they don't have to hustle. Debra Wilson: Here's how it started: working for the city of New York Parks and Recreation, decide to go downtown Manhattan because Young Guns was opening up.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: Got a chance to see it, came out early, it was already in downtown. I was in the Village. Somebody was handing out flyers for a show. Improv at the beginning.  What do you mean improv? Oh, these guys that come out, they get suggestions from the audience and then they create comedy on the spot. That's really cool. Preface, I'd already gone to the high school of performing arts.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: But I didn't take it seriously.  Like, it was fun to be immersed in that. But like Joan Rivers…yes, I ended up booking the show. But if I didn't, it was like, this is an amazing experience.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: So, for me, I was always living to be in the experience in that moment. But I was like, I don't want to starve.  I don't want to have to work hard at this; I want to enjoy it. And the moment it's not fun for me. I'm like a three-year-old: I'm out and I cry. I don't want to do this.   Randall Ryan: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: So, I said, I'm not hustling for stuff like that. I'm not going to be a starving artist. People who have to do this for their art.  They're just passionate about it. I'm like, "Yeah, great for you. I like having food in my stomach, I don't know about you. I like a roof over my head and I like my jewelry." So, I went to the show. Everyone was with a group. I was very much a loner still.  And at one point the improv group goes, "Hey, we'd like a volunteer from the audience," which is a part of their show. No one would get up. People were pushing each other, no, you go, you go, you go.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: I had done theater. I came from the high school's performing arts.  So, for me, it was like, "Okay, let me just see what this is." Because I didn't know what improv was. So, for me, it was an experiment.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: Because it was so “improv? What's improv? I don't know, come and see the show.: Went, raised my hand and it was only two rules, yield and don't deny.  So whatever happens, go along with everything.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: Don't deny it, go along with everything. Great. So, there was an improv, they got all the suggestions from the audience and I'll never forget. It was a spy mystery movie and it was called The Game. The exercise was called Foreign Movie.  So, two of the improv troupe would sit down in the audience and they would dub what we were doing into English…   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: …while I mouthed gibberish. And the other actor who was in the troupe would mouth gibberish. And so, whatever these two said, we had to do.   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: Unless we took over.  And then, whatever they said after that we would do. And so, it was a spy movie that took place in Paris on the Eiffel Tower. And at the end, we fall off. And that was the suggestion.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: So, for me, I was already in that mindset to have fun. I'm like, "Okay, only two rules to this game?  Fucking easy!”   Randall Ryan: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: Yield and don't deny. Go along with it.  I go along with everything. And so, for me, I got... like a child, I got immersed. So, it became very real for me.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: And so for me, I didn't see the humor in it because I wasn't trying to be funny. I was trying to do the improv, which was you’re a spy and you're going to fall off the Eiffel Tower.  But the people who are doing your voice are telling you. So, they're the vessel, they're filling my vessel.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: Just like every character that I do with voiceover fills my vessel and then it's commitment time. And that's exactly what happened.   Gillian Brashear: Hm.   Debra Wilson: The owner of the troupe said, "Listen, we don't have a lot of black people that do improv, and certainly not a lot of black women. Would you join the troupe?"  "No, I have a city job." Okay. But would you like to do a workshop, just for fun and do it some more? Like if you don't want to come back on-stage and do it and you don't want to join the troupe, let's do a workshop. On a Saturday, we're just all coming around.  We're playing and coming up with new ideas for games.” Okay, I'd like to sit around and meet you guys again and say hi again. Absolutely, after working with you. I did, there were three other black women there. And I went, what the fuck is this scam?   Randall Ryan: (laughs)   Gillian Brashear: (laughs) Debra Wilson: And we all played. And I'm like, "This man is trying to get into black women's panties."   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: ‘Cause there are only black women here. He's done it. Because that's what I thought. He must have done this with other women…   Randall Ryan: Uh huh.   Debra Wilson: …and got them on-stage. And it was like, "Hey, you know, come and play."   Gillian Brashear: Mm hm. Debra Wilson: And then, pick the pussy he wants. That's what I felt.   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: That's what I felt. He going to pick the pussy he wants, you know what I'm saying? Like a fucking box of Toblerone.   Randall Ryan: (laughs) Gillian Brashear: (laughs) Box of Toblerone! Debra Wilson: What ended up happening is everybody left, and it was just me and him. And I was like, “I'm going to have to beat this white man down. I'm going to have to beat this white man down in the rehearsal hall in Manhattan.”  And he said, "I just wanted to let you know that this was a professional audition."  They have picture and resume. But you, you get so into it and you listen and you pay attention, and you're not trying to force yourself. You know how to flow. You naturally do improv. We work on the weekends. It won't interfere with your city job and we make money.  You can bring friends. You can bring family. They get a chance to see you perform. If you do no other performance, think about it. We would love to have you in the troupe. You're a new addition,. you're a new dynamic, you're a black woman. We don't get a lot of black women that do improv.  You're going to bring a whole new dynamic to this all-white troupe. And you have your voice. I mean, your voice!  And I went, "okay."   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: A month later, amanager was there because she had a standup who was coming on after us. “Hey, you know what? You're really wonderful. I would really love to represent you.”  No, I don't do this professionally. This is fun. “You sure?” Mm hm. I don't do this. This is just fun, thank you very much.  The person she was representing was a man at the time.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: So anyway, troupes come and go and I'm learning how to write now. Oh, this is fun.    Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: So, I'm learning how to write and I'm already doing what I'm doing with the improv and this is great. We're writing sketches and we're writing improv pieces and things. And this is improv exercises and improv games. This is really great! One of the women in there, Nancy Murrah, God love her. I just adore this woman.  So, she ends up joining, it's an all-women's group called Significant Others. We write, we play, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We do some stuff. Nancy says, "Listen, I'm auditioning for a TV show. It's a pilot. I think you should audition with me." "Nancy. I don't do this professionally." "I know, you say that, but you're already been doing it professionally because you get paid for it.  And it's just a pilot, it may go nowhere, but it's going to be fun to audition. And you're not a threat because we work together. And I don't see your talent overshadowing mine. And I don't see my talent overshadowing yours.  But we worked together, because we had this Clarence Thomas sketch and it was hilarious.    Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: And she's like, "Let's do the Clarence Thomas sketch and going with our individual characters."   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: So, we did and we both booked it. And she said, "Now you're going to need a manager." She introduced me to her manager, which was the same woman I had turned down, years before.   Randall Ryan: (laughs) Gillian Brashear: Wow, fantastic. Debra Wilson: And so, that's why I mean, I honestly, I stumbled my way up. And with voiceover: same thing.  Two things I always did as a kid, and I grew up doing, because people were fascinated: authentic baby crying and dogs, dog barking. Dog barking in the distance, growling dogs, fighting rottweilers, that kind of a thing. And I would run up behind my friends (snarls & growls). Gillian Brashear: (laughs) And I bet they loved that. I bet your friends really loved that. (laughs) Debra Wilson: Oh, yeah, they absolutely love that. I kept friends for a lifetime.   Randall Ryan & Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: But what I would do is I would stand behind them and then grab them at the back of their knee. Gillian Brashear: Oh, my gosh, it'd be terrifying! Debra Wilson: It's terrifying. Gillian Brashear: Oh, my God, I'm surprised you didn't get hurt! Debra Wilson: I know it. But it was funny to me!  It was funny to me!  Someone laughed! And so, I was in the audience at a comedy theory at LaBrea, not in the audience. I was onstage because it was a young man named J. Keith van Straaten. And I was on the show What's My Line, and they brought out celebrities from the '50s and '60s and '70s, and that's my time period. So, they brought them out, they talked about their lives and what they're doing. And we had to guess who they were. And then, there was of course that chat interview from j. Keith van Straaten.  “And what are you up to now? And thanks very much.”  And then, there was a board like on the original show, not a wiper board, but cardboard.  And it had a frame as if it were a picture. And they would write their name when they came out.  Someone stood behind it and pulled the sign up so it looked like it disappeared.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm. Debra Wilson: And for me, it was like, when I looked at it the first thing I thought was this is a magic trick for a baby, like peek-a-boo. So, I did my baby giggles and my baby laugh. Little did I know that Paul Doherty, the Head of Cunningham-Escott-Slevin and Doherty…   Gillian Brashear: Hmm.   Debra Wilson: …was in the audience because his client was J. Keith van Straaten.  He asked me to take a meeting. I met all their agents. They were sitting in a conference room. And all I was was like, "Well, okay, what do you want to hear?" For me, it was like I was five years old again.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: "You want to hear my English accent?"  Because again, I had nothing to lose.    Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: I had nothing to lose except having fun. And I believe in being in the moment. And so, acting was in a kinship to me because it was always about being in the moment. And voiceover is in a kinship to me. about being in the moment, I've been with CESD almost two decades. Randall Ryan: Debra, one of the most fascinating things about you is that I always look up and I cannot believe how much time has gone by.  And I find you fascinating, I always have. Debra Wilson: Oh, thank you. Randall Ryan: You're just your own unique being and, both as an actor and as a person. And I think that's awesome. Debra Wilson: And it's not because of my tarantulas and scorpions? Randall Ryan: Yeah, I don't know.   Gillian Brashear: (chuckles)   Randall Ryan: Well, I live with tarantulas and scorpions, so I don't care. Debra Wilson: Okay. Well, see?   Gillian Brashear: (laughs) Randall Ryan: That would probably be neither a draw nor a detriment.   Debra Wilson: Okay.   Randall Ryan: It's like, oh,oh you have these things. Okay, whatever. Debra Wilson: See?  There's the kismet. Randall Ryan: There's the kismet. Debra Wilson: There's the kismet all over again. Randall Ryan: There's the kismet. Gillian Brashear: I just want to say: in listening to your story about you, about all of these aspects of you, the pictures that were coming into my mind with your beautiful descriptions, honestly, it was breathtaking to hear everything that you had to say. And I feel so fortunate to have been able to work with you as I have.  I really thank you for that. Debra Wilson: Thank you, goddess. Gillian Brashear: Yeah, I look forward to it. Debra Wilson: Here's to the next now with us, yes? Gillian Brashear: Yeah, absolutely. Debra Wilson: Yes. Gillian Brashear: Randall. Randall Ryan: Sure. Gillian Brashear: All right. (laughs) Randall Ryan: (laughs) Like you do. Gillian Brashear: All right. Randall Ryan: Debra. Thank you as always. Debra Wilson: My pleasure. Randall Ryan: Thank you for doing this. And we need to do this again. And we might even need to do it again while we're not recording.   Debra Wilson: (chuckles)   Randall Ryan: And there you have it. The force of nature, that is Debra Wilson. Let's talk Voiceover is hosted by Gillian Brashear: actor, director, visionary.  And me, Randall Ryan: owner of HamsterBall Studios, delivering the world's best talent, virtually…anywhere. And we also can both be found at www.thevoicedirector.world. If you got comments or questions, or just want to let us know what you think, reach out at info@letstalkvoiceover.com.  You can find us at all of your favorite places to get podcasts: iTunes, Stitcher, Apple podcast, Podbean. If they have podcasts, chances are we're there. Thanks for listening. And Let's Talk Voiceover again, real soon.

Mark is one of the most well-known and credited video game directors in the world, casting and directing actors in titles such as Warhammer, Tropico, Wallace & Gromit, Need for Speed, and so many more.  He's been at the forefront of the creation of the industry. and he's still a bit of a mad scientist: creating, tweaking, and pushing the technology envelope.  He has his own definite style and a deep love of the craft of acting.  We got to have a rare in-person interview with him, where he put us in separate booths so we could experience "the lab" that is his London studio OMUK.  This is what came out! Randall Ryan: You want to do a sync clap? Just like one, two, three? It'll just make it easier for me to sync the three feeds. Gillian Brashear: All at the same time? Mark Estdale: Yeah. You're recording now. Do it now. Randall Ryan: Let's do it now. Gillian Brashear: Okay. Mark Estdale: Okay. Randall Ryan: All right, here we go. Three, two, one. Way to go, Mark. You didn't clap. Mark Estdale: Oh, you want me to clap as well? Randall Ryan: Yeah, all three of us. Mark Estdale: Okay. Randall Ryan: Three, two, one. Perfect. Close enough. Mark Estdale: Ish. Gillian Brashear: Nice. Randall Ryan: It's ish, it's ish, yeah. Gillian Brashear: Right. We're ready to roll here. THEME MUSIC Randall Ryan: Mark Estdale is one of the more fascinating personalities in our industry. Over 25 years, he's directed more than 140 video game titles, including some very well-known franchises, Warhammer, Tropico, Need for Speed, Wallace & Gromit, The Witcher, and Tales of Monkey Island. He's an innovator who really pushes the technology envelope when it comes to casting and recording. Gillian and I had a rare in-person conversation with him at his London studio, OMUK, which he refers to as the Petri dish. Gillian Brashear: Mark Estdale, let's talk voiceover. Mark Estdale: Let's do that. Gillian Brashear: Yeah. Mark Estdale: And you're in the lab. Randall Ryan: We are in the lab. Mark Estdale: Yeah. Gillian Brashear: It's a bit of a mad lab. Mark Estdale: It is a mad lab. Randall Ryan: Mark, when did we first meet? Do you even remember? Mark Estdale: Fuck knows. I have no idea. It's a few years ago anyhow, so. Randall Ryan: Interesting conversation that you and I were having just a minute ago about how you got into this because ... Mark, hey, look at the guitars. Are you a musician? Mark Estdale: No. I play for myself. It's a meditation. I ended up messing around with music, which, fundamentally, has to do with being with people and doing interesting creative stuff. I think musicians have, people have a degree of competence and can produce music. I doodle and from doodling sounds happen. Connecting those sounds is another art form. I doodled all my life. And I went to run a studio for a record company and I brought my doodle tapes. I would get my mates into the studio. We would just experiment with stuff. It was the beginning of digital. The only music I was working with was experimental industrial stuff in the '70s and early '80s. And you were going out recording foundries and factories and noises. And then making tape loops and running tape loops in the studio and experimenting with all that kind of stuff. Mark Estdale: So the art of replacing sounds with other sounds was about cutting tape and doing all that kind of stuff. So, my deal was the studio. They paid me fuck all. When I wasn't in session, I had free rein of the studio to do what I wanted. So I just record staff and have friends around and some of the musicians, we'd just experiment with things. So I basically transitioned to another studio with my tapes. The owner of the record company went, I want to give you a deal. And I went, great. And then, suddenly, it became work. And all the pleasure went out of it. And I went blind in the sense of there's no way I can mix my own stuff. I can't direct myself as an actor. So I'm on a journey as an actor right now. So I'm doing training right now. Mark Estdale: But yeah, we did a single and it was great. Let's have the album. And it was just like nah, nah. It's too much light work and it doesn't come from the heart and out of the weirdness of it, but I'm still planning. So I've been building instruments and I bought interesting drums and things and just things that just got weird sounds. But the world has changed dramatically since my skill as an editor was with a razor blade. Randall Ryan: Razor blade, right. Mark Estdale: And then when digital came in, I got really into that early ... We were mastering to Betamax and things like that back in the- Gillian Brashear: Right. Randall Ryan: Yeah. Mark Estdale: That was in the, I think that was the early '80s when that all came in. Then, my journey took me away from that. But I got into the whole music stuff that it was just farting about, trying to break things, trying to do things that were interesting. You wouldn't call it music per se. Randall Ryan: But the thing is that you produced. You produced albums, you produced singles, you produced bands. Mark Estdale: Yeah. Randall Ryan: Well, I mean you did. And so- Mark Estdale: Yeah. Randall Ryan: I've talked about this before. Actually, one time, you and I were at Buca di Beppo in- Mark Estdale: What? What is that? Where is that? Randall Ryan: Well, it's this little place where they can ... Yeah. Mark Estdale: Somewhere in LA. Randall Ryan: D.B. Cooper had organized something. Mark Estdale: Oh yeah, that'll be in, yeah, that'd be in San Francisco. Randall Ryan: Yeah, so it was in San Francisco, right. You and I were talking about this at Buca di Beppo, which is the first time I knew you had anything to do with music. And you were talking about the band that you did and just how you were taking all these electronic pieces and parts and stuff and putting them together. And I just remember listening to that going, this guy's a producer. And that's probably, I'm guessing, somehow how you got to doing what you're doing now. Mark Estdale: Yeah. Well, the thing is I came from performance originally. So, one of the things I got into was acting, but it wasn't really starting as acting. I was just a bored teenager on the street with a mate. We'd used to sit and watch people, then mimic people. The game we played was copy somebody and see how close you could get to them and copying all their mannerisms, just walking down the street. And it was just hilarious. We got more and more outrageous, making it bigger and bigger. And we would gather an audience. People would see us doing it than just stop and watch. And the person we were mimicking was completely unaware of it. Randall Ryan: That was going to be my question. Like, people started to come up going, do me? Mark Estdale: No, no, no, no. It was just us and about. But we had so much fun doing it and it was a real buzz from it. I was 15 at the time. And then, yeah, we started doing a bit of sketch stuff and I just loved it and I thought I really wanted to be an actor, but I'm deeply dyslexic. I got thrown out of school at seven. And it's a long brutal history that goes behind that. And one thing about acting was learning words and scripts. And I just, I can't do that. Gillian Brashear: Are you able to learn and memorize without reading it? Like just listening and memorizing? Mark Estdale: Nah. Gillian Brashear: No. Interesting. Mark Estdale: Nah, I can't even memorize what's in my own head. I'm an endless note-taker now. So I think on paper and on screens. But I love words. Being dyslexic gives me a, I think, a massive advantage in doing what I'm doing. Because in the studio I've learned that playing dumb is the blessed place to be. It's proven to be in a sense. I also get ill where I can't talk. Gillian Brashear: Really? Mark Estdale: Yeah. I can't remember the name of the disease. But essentially, if I talk I get stomach acid in my lungs, which would destroy my lungs. Gillian Brashear: And so then physically, the ability to talk, it's shut down or you just- Mark Estdale: Yeah. So it becomes ... I get into a state of uncontrolled coughing because, basically, your stomach acid is eating in your lungs. Gillian Brashear: My gosh. Mark Estdale: So it's potentially a very, very dangerous disease, but it's just a tiny thing. So, if it starts, I start coughing, that agitates it, and it gets into a loop. So, fundamentally, I can't talk. So, when I first got ill, I was in the studio and I had to communicate completely nonverbally. So that was a really interesting learning space too, because it was all about body language and communication. And the studio was set up like a regular studio where the engineer is in the main position and the director is at the back or somewhere else. I prefer to be in the booth with the actor if I could, but I'm far too noisy. So the glass is a necessity. But then I realized having this level of intimacy where it's between you and I, and it's about that trusting relationship. And one of the things about not being able to speak is then to be able to communicate ... I became Silent Bob. All hand gestures, things gestures, but it became a really intimate way of directing. And just the performances that were coming out were just great. Mark Estdale: And I just thought, okay, director, shut up. And in the studio, it's that whole sense of you want the performer to perform. We speak 9,000 words an hour. And sometimes, especially when you're doing the advertising stuff, you'll have a team of people just chatting away in the control room. The actor's doing nothing. Or then the director is talking, talking, talking. You're actually paying the actor the most to do the performing. And the ratio between performance and chatter, there's a tendency to be more talk here than in there. And just from the fact of being ill, observing that process and going, okay, this is liberating the actor in certain ways. That was interesting. Gillian Brashear: That is interesting. Mark Estdale: I've learned to just ask those straight questions. So rather than directing somebody, being in control, doing all that background work, it's been in the moment and going, I don't understand this. So we work in the studio exactly like we are here now. We're all talking to each other. And what I do is have the writer in. I'll have currently those people on Zoom, which is horrible. But generally, there's a group of people here and the whole idea, this is a collaborative process. So there is no talkback button. It is always open. So you are coming into the studio space to do your part, but we're working as a team. And it's exploring together. Mark Estdale: So, my default for directing is not talking to the actor, it's talking with the writer or questioning the script in an esoterical way or just going, I don't really understand this. What do you think? I go, what do you think, and joining into a conversation and letting the actor take from what is being said what they think is necessary. It's a non-pressure thing. But actually playing the dumb guy in the space, to ask the stupid questions is the liberator. Gillian Brashear: It allows the space for things to happen. Mark Estdale: And I think that was the thing when you mentioned earlier about record production and all that kind of stuff. It never came to where I wish I was doing it now because I know so much more. But the one thing I really noticed was having the studio as a liberating space was the most important factor of getting a great performance. Like bands in rehearsal rooms, in their own space, can produce magic and be fluid. Come into a studio, that's that level of stress. Then you'll say, recording, that's another level of stress. So, I looked at everything down the line, which actually liberated that space, that stress. So for instance, the space here is a living room. Randall Ryan: Basically, yeah. Mark Estdale: It's a den. It's somewhere to come and feel at home and you want to relax in, you want to hang out in it to feel safe. It's breaking down those barriers. So for instance, the recording engineer is working like recorders on film set. They're out of sight. It's all about the action. It's all about living in the fluid space, without words into the moment of the game. They're absolutely in the game. It's about immersing them in the game. Gillian Brashear: What do you mean by that? That you're immersing them in the moment of the game. How do you do that? Mark Estdale: The one thing that you need to be connected to is the game. I always think artwork is a corpse, animation is a zombie.  An actor embodying the zombie, bringing it to life, is a fully realized character. So, all of those elements are really powerful. So with the game developers, say, they've been working on a game for five years. If you've not cast early, you are dealing with a team of people who have got a voice in their head. And every single person will have a different voice in their head. Randall Ryan: Yep, absolutely. Gillian Brashear: Mm-hmm. Mark Estdale: So you're competing against that. Randall Ryan: Absolutely. Mark Estdale: Well, the phrase that's used always is, fuck yeah. Casting is about fuck yeah. Randall Ryan: Yeah. Mark Estdale: It's just like, yes, that character is fully alive within the orchestra of the ensemble. And if you cast early and the developer's going, fuck yeah, there is no doubt whatsoever about the character. There is clarity at that point. And then you can move that character in different directions. You may even want to recast it because it doesn't quite work within the context of the world. But what you have is a united vision, early, and that is so powerful because it influences the nuance of the writing. It influences the nuance of the animation. Every element is feeding each other. And by the time you come to record, you are already well ahead. And we want the actor engaged in that process, within those discussions that we have with the developer, so they're part of that process of developing a character. Randall Ryan: So, because the culture is so strong for casting late, doing all the VO late in the development of the game ... Mark Estdale: Yeah. Randall Ryan: ... how do you get people to buy on to, hey, we need to do this now. Scripts aren't even written a lot of times. Mark Estdale: Yeah, they don't. We don't need them to be written. Randall Ryan: You still buck up against the culture. Mark Estdale: We are the culture. Those ideas are the seeds. You are bringing in a master of character in an actor, somebody who knows how to interpret and to bring that character to life. You're bringing that level of craft and expertise into the team to weave magic within that team. You need to just talk about it like this and people go, oh yeah. Randall Ryan: Right. Mark Estdale: Yeah. But that's the way we roll.  The sausage factory of just churning it out at the end..hey, that is an opportunity to do magic beyond. So if we're working on a big plan, they're just throwing everything to the universe, and I'm working with an indie with no money. We can so outperform, outclass with so little. Randall Ryan: Absolutely. Mark Estdale: Simply because of the depth of engagement. And that depth of engagement costs bugger all. But it's a human engagement in a process and it's a creative journey you're embarking together. It makes a profound difference. Gillian Brashear: Absolutely. And it makes use of what actors do and have early in a process. It makes so much sense now listening to you ... Mark Estdale: Yeah. Gillian Brashear: ... that for the writers to be able to hear the words while they're still in the process of making it all, but actually hearing a character must inform the writing aspect in such a more rich way. Mark Estdale: Yeah. We look at games that we've worked on that are ongoing franchises, which is a really good example is a game called Vermintide, which is a Warhammer game. And there are a bunch of player characters. And it's all about the interactions between those player characters. As soon as the actors came on board, the characters became fully alive. And over the years, each time we record, the actors bring feeds, the writing feeds, everything else, and feeds the humor and the humanity of everything. The way the dialogue works is really interesting as well, because it's not just straight dialogue, you're using buckets. So, conversations are actually built up. Randall Ryan: So you're randomizing some of the responses? Mark Estdale: Yeah. But the way that the whole system here works is the actors are always working with each other in the booth, in that random space. We're not ensembling it because ensemble won't work in the situation. But they're always working off each other and adjusting, and everything becomes this fluid movement. So, the cast is now mature. The game is now six years on. But the writing has become funnier and funnier and more nuanced. Randall Ryan: So are you doing playback? Here's just some random playback for you to respond to. Mark Estdale: Yeah. There's a thing called CDT. There's creative dialogue tools. And fundamentally, what creative dialogue tools does is connect any game asset to the script. So for instance, you've got this script in front of you. You can see here. So, you've got this bit of dialogue. And whatever's going on, it can be video, so you've got character scene, item video. So, anything visual is there. I don't need to explain that conversation to you. You know where you are. We also got the voices of the actors. Source that if it's another language. Spot effects, those are just things that may interrupt, like an explosion or a door slamming or a sonic interruption. Then you have ambience, which is the ambient noise of the thing. And then music. So all those layers are available instantly. So what the CDT does is connect all the potential game assets to the script, so the actors in the movement. So this one is just this scene here is you're in a bar. This is Randall. He's talking to Elaine. Gillian Brashear: Randall, you're talking to Elaine. Randall Ryan: Well. She was there. She bought me a drink. What are you going to do? Mark Estdale: So, you can just go in and act this straight away, but I've got the Randall line straight here. So you can go off, you're off. Gillian Brashear: I'm nervous since you're here. More like barracudas. Okay, good. ´Cause I don't. Mark Estdale: So she's straight into ... She knows the scene, you know the level, you know everything, you are utterly connected. Gillian Brashear: Yeah, this is fun. Mark Estdale: Exactly. And that is the response. You're entering the roller coaster. Gillian Brashear: Yeah. Mark Estdale: So the actors are coming in just going, they just make choices and run. Gillian Brashear: Yeah. Randall Ryan: Yeah. Mark Estdale: I was talking earlier to you about the neuroscience of this. This is where I'm super excited, but I can't really articulate much of it now. When I first started doing game stuff, one of the things I really noticed was you'd be really diligent and give actors the script in advance and they will study it- Randall Ryan: When you can. Mark Estdale: Yeah, when you can. Randall Ryan: Right. Mark Estdale: The actor will prepare and come in and do their thing with the context of the directors who knew the background work and got the choices and all that kind of stuff. But then if you gave the actor a side they'd never seen before and say, just go, oftentimes their very first read, it'd be just knock the ball out the park. And I was going, what is going on here? So I never ever give actors a script in advance. Never. It doesn't matter how intricate it is. There was this really profoundly personal dark journey a character had gone on. There's this monologue, long monologue. And I thought, this is one to give in advance, but I didn't. I decided not to. And he hit it in one take. And by the end of it, we were all in tears. And the actor didn't know what was coming. They didn't know what the next sentence was. They didn't know what they were going to expose about themselves. It was profound for us in the studio here. We just go, fuck yeah. Gillian Brashear: Mm-hmm. I think it's got something to do, when I listen to what you're saying, the element of discovery. Mark Estdale: Yeah. Gillian Brashear: And when the actor is allowed to discover in the moment, the reactions they're going to have are very fresh and real. They're not manipulated. Mark Estdale: When I first started experiencing this ability to just live in the moment, I was thinking about where in the real world does this kind of acting exist? In theater, it's within improv. Randall Ryan: It's improv, right, exactly. Mark Estdale: But an improv is part of devising, part of knowing… Gillian Brashear: Mm-hmm. Rules. Mark Estdale: Yeah. However, in the real world where that improvised space is happening is when somebody's working undercover. So if you've got a cop who's working undercover, they are acting, they're being somebody they're not. And they have to survive in the world and their life is at stake. So that is improv extreme. Somebody from MI6 came down to the studio and couldn't talk about anything. But then he said, I would take it, I would take ... Gillian Brashear: It was a silent session. Mark Estdale: But what he said to me, he said, this is what we do, but for fun. And he's like, I can't tell you anything, but I can take you on a journey. And an interesting journey unfolded after that. That thing about living in the moment, I was really curious about how can you cold-read a script? Because somebody working undercover is total improvisation. Randall Ryan: Absolutely. Mark Estdale: Improvised theater is improvisation. But having a script and reading it, how come that works cold? And I was really curious about that. Basically, our brain is so much faster than we think it is. The thinking, speaking part is a linear element that comes from insane complexity. But if you think of the connections in the brain that are happening and firing at all times, if those connections were a ball of Christmas tree lights, that ball of Christmas tree lights would be the size of the known universe. That is the complexity and the power and the speed of our brain. We're coordinating everything at any one time. So you're trusting our humanity. The choices we make are always instant. If you go out on a date, and you prepare things, you just fall over yourself. Randall Ryan: Yeah. Gillian Brashear: Mm-hmm. Mark Estdale: Yeah. But if you don't care and you relax and you yourself, you come out and it's enabling that to happen. There's a lot more depth to the neuroscience of it. One of the really exciting things that's happening in cognitive science is the merging of psychology, of neurology, of physiology in their language and understanding. The connection between that and what's happening in the scientific world about how the brain works is so exciting. And the thing is, actors have known the essence of that and have created their own language about how we function because they're questioning how we function. Mark Estdale: Anybody who studied acting or taught acting is looking about how do you become another character, how do we embody fully somebody we're not? And that's the essence of the heart of the craft of acting, but it's studying humanity from a creative point of view. Whereas the science, the cognitive world is thinking about exactly the same subject from a scientific point of view. And those two worlds are converging. Mark Estdale: Rizzolatti, the Italian neurophysicist discovered mirror neurons. And mirror neurons are those neurons that respond ... I think some 300 people or 3,000 people probably take me in a corner and beat me up for getting it wrong. But they are the things that ... They're our imagination. So if I tell you a story, you will have an emotional response as if that was real. Randall Ryan: Right. Mark Estdale: I remember when I was at the Game On thing in LA and I talked about my fingers being broken. Randall Ryan: Oh yeah. Right. Mark Estdale: And the whole audience went ACCK!, you know what I mean? We learn from other people's experience. Gillian Brashear: Absolutely. Mark Estdale: And that is why theater is so wonderful. Gillian Brashear: That's storytelling in itself. Mark Estdale: It's storytelling. Gillian Brashear: Yes. Mark Estdale: The whole art of storytelling. Gillian Brashear: Right. That's why we do it. It's our shared consciousness. Mark Estdale: Yeah. Gillian Brashear: We're learning from your experience. Mark Estdale: Now science is beginning to go, oh, there's all these connections. So you've got embodied cognition. You've got a thing called 4E cognition. We're not just a brain in a head. We're a brain in a body. It's that physical connection. So, you get embodied acting. Then you get transformative acting, which is taking a step further. If you look into the relational stuff that Uta Hagen talks about what is the relationship between you and an object or your environment, really important. But this 4E cognition is about the cognitive process is connected fully to the environment, not just to head, not just to body, but it is external as well as internal. So, it's to do with spaces and containers, and containers is the thing I'm really interested in. That's when the new studio lab is going to be built, is looking at that research into containers. Mark Estdale: I can talk about this for hours and just go, because it is really interesting. But the fundamental thing is it's about how to liberate somebody in that moment. For an actor coming into the space, it's about being. One of the things I advise in auditions. You can hear when somebody's crafted it and reread something first. You can hear somebody living in the moment. You can hear when somebody's directed. You can hear when an actor is stuck in front of a microphone. It's a cage. I am caged. Because I keep moving off mic and you can hear it. That means it's a bad take. You will never give me a bad take. So when we're casting, what I recommend now is don't look at the sides, look at the character. Yeah, think about the context of who you are, what you are. Look at the context for the lines, not the lines themselves. Then cold read the lines, then press send. Without reviewing it, listening back or anything. If you fluff it, stop, start again. But keep that in and just give one take, send it. Gillian Brashear: I like it. I like that whole idea. Mark Estdale: Because it's about coming ... You're making a choice. So when I'm casting and having people in the studio, when somebody have made a decision, you have something tangible that you can flow with. And they've come in with a decision, you are throwing them into something and they're going with it. And then you can go, how about this? And they go, oh, different decision, let's go that direction. That's what I'm looking for in casting. That's all. Actors are coming to the booth wanting to please me. Randall Ryan: Right. Gillian Brashear: Right. Mark Estdale: And it's just dead. Gillian Brashear: Yes. Mark Estdale: It's never going to happen. And it's what I call licking. People want to lick you. It's like uh-uh, make a choice, run with it and let's play. They're entering a playground. They're being a child. And that is what training really gives people, that ability to play and to be safe and have confidence. We get actors bouncing into auditions and it's just like, okay, let's play. It's always a learning experience. And they're less invested in trying to please. And the more they're embedded in being the better chance they have. And the tough thing is, the actors who are really experienced know that. But that's why we have these agent sessions, where the agent comes and sits in here and we'll discuss everything and do the same thing as if I'm directing a session, open mic, just mess around. Here's a scene. I go through these scenes here with the actor, throw them about and introduce them to it. And this is basically what I call a no-risk session. So, we have a very strict score system. Four is on the knows. Zero is what the fuck. So, fuck yeah to what the fuck. Yeah. Randall Ryan: So one is I don't give a fuck. Two is ... Mark Estdale: You could give a fuck. Randall Ryan: Could give a fuck. Three is fucking pretty good. Mark Estdale: Yeah. Gillian Brashear: The four levels. Mark Estdale: Yeah, we could have the fuck scale. Yeah, we haven't thought of that. But I think, we actually do do that, having the fuck scale. The Randall Ryan fuck scale, that's what we're going to call it. Gillian Brashear: Four levels of fuckery. Mark Estdale: Yeah, exactly. So, we'll zone people. Randall Ryan: Right. Mark Estdale: To start with. So it won't go into refined. This will be a three, four or a two, three or a one, two, or a zero, one on their first take. That to me is meaningless. Because what happens, you are dropping somebody into the playground for the first time and they're going, do I like this, do I want this, do I embrace this? Then they go away and they think about it. And if they want to come back, they'll be a different person. Randall Ryan: So when you're casting with this, when you're doing things like that, is that either you're already thinking about casting them and so these are like call back auditions, because you probably can't do that with everybody, right, unless you have a really small number of people that you're calling from. Mark Estdale: We get people to self-take. The casting side's really important. Randall Ryan: Right. Of course. Mark Estdale: Because that score system exists. We have a thing called the casting matrix. I think I can bring up a matrix for you, which is terrifying because it's another sheet. Yeah, Google Sheets is wonderful as well. Randall Ryan: Do you realize this visual stuff is great for a podcast? Mark Estdale: Yeah, that's perfect for a podcast. But it's fundamentally. So this is a casting sheet. This is sanitized so you don't see all the actors on it. Fundamentally, get their scores. Our casting briefs are really precise. And within it, there is a description of how to submit, what to submit. So we'll say things like don't slate your sample. So if an actor slates the sample, they don't get listened so they go straight to the bin. Randall Ryan: I've told so many people that exact thing. Thank you for saying that. Mark Estdale: Well, the thing is if somebody can't follow instructions when they want a job, how the fuck are they going to listen when they're on their job? Randall Ryan: 100% agree. Gillian Brashear: Mm-hmm. Mark Estdale: So there are details within the casting submission, which adhere to or be damned. And the other thing is, so the way we look at the casting is each actor, if they're going to submit for multiple roles, their best score is going to be the average. So if they submit for one role and nail it, they've got top score. Randall Ryan: Yeah. Mark Estdale: Yeah. We've got some down here that submitted for a couple of roles. They've nailed one, but they submitted for three, and they're off the scale down here. They were four for one role, but they wouldn't be considered for that role or they wouldn't be the top choices for that role because their average was lower. And the reason we do this is, one, it's about self-awareness. It's also about production awareness. So when you submit, it takes at least 20 minutes to listen through to a sample. And oftentimes, when we're in casting, three people will listen to that sample and make notes. That takes time. Yeah. If you're carpet-bombing want to be hopeful and you'll say, oh, I'll go for this one and go, you are wasting our time. You may be brilliant and be able to nail them all, but get through your door on one is all you need to do because we can play once you're in production. Randall Ryan: Okay. So let me give you a little devil's advocate on that. Mark Estdale: Yeah. Randall Ryan: So, unless you are doing one-to-one casting, one actor, one part, one part, one actor, even if you're submitting for roles that maybe you don't get, if you're submitting for something that you have no business submitting for, that's a faux pas. But you submit for that one role that, as you said, you nail. And then maybe you submit for a couple others, like they're okay, they're average, they would work if we had to work with them. Isn't there something positive to that if you are having to say, they're going to get that main role of rows, this actor is just perfect for rows? I can give them two other roles. I can give them an NPC. I can give them maid number eight. Mark Estdale: That's my decision, not yours. It's a production decision. So this is about getting through the door. You do a self-submission, submit your best. Because then, if we don't know you, we'll call you in and then we'll mess with you. We'll send you on a roller coaster. So we'll play around with that character because we want to see about adjustment. The self-tape tells you nothing. Some self-tapes, whether that actor can really do it, especially if it's somebody you don't know, it may have taken hours of crafting and all that kind of stuff. So, it's saying, yeah, this works, but I want to see it work under production conditions. If we don't know the actor, then we'll bring them into the studio, put them into production conditions. And during that exploration, we will explore other characters. Randall Ryan: Well, this is something you can do because of what you said, where you are getting casting done early. That gives you that luxury of that. Mark Estdale: But it's always pushing that casting time. Having casting time is ... Casting is king, is everything. Randall Ryan: Yeah, it is. Mark Estdale: We cast wide all the time. So, probably the casting backlog is about thousand actors right now within productions. We've got all these samples. So, Zach here and Nat are going through those building the database. So which is the matrix here, which is scored. So every sample gets a score. And the average score is the actor's in through the door score. So if they come in, they cast, they go, that is the role I want. If the actor is undecided because they're so brilliant, just come to make one choice. That is the message. Make a choice. Because if it's good, we will call you back for other stuff anyhow, even if you don't get the role. Mark Estdale: So this is statistics. And this also gives us statistics about the agent and every statistic tells a story. So, the average score from the actors then becomes the average scores to the agents. So we basically expect agents to do a lot of the work for us. So we will send the briefs to the agent. And if the agent is really hot, they know their talent, and they go, he'll be good for this role. Or she'll be great for this one. And they will send specific actors. Randall Ryan: And they don't give you 10 to show that they've got a bunch, which happens a lot. Mark Estdale: Yeah. So some of our agents will just send us three samples. Randall Ryan: Right. Mark Estdale: And they all go bang, bang, bang. They're in the bag. Oh, nice agent, good, saved us time. And others will get all the briefs come in. They just put it onto their website for any actor to put in whatever they want. And they just pipe it all to us and we'll get 100 submissions. Randall Ryan: Absolutely. Mark Estdale: Do we want to work with that agent? Do you know the production cost of dealing with that and waiting through that? And some of those samples will be shocking. So having the agents in here for these agent sessions, we talk about this thing. And so we are evaluating the agent as well as the actor. And if we get carpet-bombed, okay, they don't understand production and they're not putting their best foot forward. They're just being hopeful or hoping something will stick in there. And that ain't good practice. We don't want to work with those agents who carpet-bomb because it is wasting our time. It's making them look really crap. The data tells a story. So we know when an agent's carpet-bombing and there's no filtering. Randall Ryan: Do you try to train the agent at all? Mark Estdale: Yeah. That's why we invite the agents down. So we've got two sessions this week with different agents. They're coming down from different agencies. So oftentimes, agents don't get to really know their crew, the actors. There's hundreds of actors on the book. And it's a real opportunity for the agent to get to know the talent, which they wouldn't normally get within the normal working day. And it's about us educating the agent, educating the actors. And that is the fundamental thing. And we find gems in doing that. So we have a massive database. Every single casting that comes through here goes onto a database. We have all the score and their average score over everything, and the notes. Every sample that comes in is an asset for the database. So there's tens of thousands of the data thing. Gillian Brashear: My gosh, it's incredible that you have time. Mark Estdale: But it means it's all at the fingertips. Gillian Brashear: Yeah. Mark Estdale: So for on a production side, you want that sense of know who you are as an actor. Put your best foot forward, what you think you're great for. Randall Ryan: Okay. So let me ask you something else then. Mark Estdale: Go on. Randall Ryan: So, let's just say you're precasting for a game. You've got a main role for something. And an actor submits for that. And they give you two different submissions for it that are radically different from one another. But they're making choices like here's one way I could play it, here's something else I could see. Or maybe the first one is, here's something that is absolutely in spec based on the brief. I have an idea on something else and I just want you to hear it. I mean, that's their thinking. They may not say that in the audition because they're just going to give you a couple of things. In your world, is that a positive, is that a detriment, could it be either? Mark Estdale: In my world, I would say it's a detriment. Randall Ryan: Reason being? Mark Estdale: Make a choice. Randall Ryan: What if they have, they've made two choices? Mark Estdale: They made two choices. Choose between one of them. Run with it. Yeah. What's your gut feel? Sometimes, they may want to go off the brief, fine. It is about conviction. Conviction carries. Randall Ryan: Okay. So if what they're doing is they're giving you one on the brief, even if they nail it, but the reason they give you the second one is because this is a little bit off the brief but this is what I feel. You would probably say, if you were the actor, give me the second one, don't give me the first, correct? That's the dilemma. Mark Estdale: It's not a dilemma. It's just make a choice and run with it. Because once you start building an ensemble, we want the brief to be precise. What actors submit expose a brief. Because if actors are submitting wild shit, we've got something wrong with the brief. But with the brief, yes, there are choices to be made. And you could go in different directions. And some actors will give me five variations, all of them wonderful. But again, that takes five times the time. Randall Ryan: It does. Mark Estdale: To do it, to review it. Randall Ryan: Unless you hear one and you're like, I don't care what else they did, that's it? Mark Estdale: Yeah. We would never make that decision. So, a self-submission is that's interesting. All you need to do is pique my interest. Because the next stage is getting them in the booth and working with them. And then that is where the discussion opens up. It's just clarity of choice. It doesn't have to be to the brief. It can be, I've got this idea, I think this will be this and give it. Because what you see is choice momentum, life in the performance, it's there. And when something is fully alive and realized and vibrant that you go, that's interesting, I want to go that way. What I'm looking for is talent to work with. As we said earlier, there's 26 productions live right now. It's not just that one role we are casting for. We are casting all the time. And if somebody's showing stuff that's interesting, that interesting gets flagged. It's part of the pool for all the productions. They may not be good for that role, but they'd be great for this one. Randall Ryan: Right. And that happens? Mark Estdale: Yeah, all the time. People will submit stuff and you go, ah, that's such a great performance, but it's just not right. And it's not just about the performance. You're building an orchestra. It's all about the group of actors. It's the ensemble that is what makes a piece work. And you want different tones and textures, pictures. You want color. It's like an orchestra. If an orchestra was all fucking violins, it'd be dead. Gillian Brashear: Right. Randall Ryan: Right. Mark Estdale: It doesn't matter how virtuoso you are. You're looking for different instruments to give you the thing. So casting is not about the brilliance of your performance for that one thing. It's about that performance in relationship to everything else. But a great performance will always be noted. And it'll go into that resource for the casting team. Randall Ryan: So a technical question then on the way that you're doing your thing. Mark Estdale: Go on. Randall Ryan: Somebody gives a great performance, but it's not what you're looking for on that brief. They are possibly going to be scored something like a two. Mark Estdale: But if it's a great performance, it wouldn't get a two. Randall Ryan: Okay. So even it's like, they're not going to get this role, you're still essentially saying, by your scoring system, they got a three. Because even though it was a great performance, it's not what you're looking for in that role. Is that not how that would work? Mark Estdale: Yeah. But three's good. They can nail it. Randall Ryan: I see. Gillian Brashear: You bring them in? Mark Estdale: I would bring them in and work them. Gillian Brashear: How do you deal with people across the ocean? Mark Estdale: We don't do any remote recording. Gillian Brashear: Interesting. Mark Estdale: Because it's all about this. Gillian Brashear: Yeah. So people have to come here and record. Mark Estdale: Yeah. Gillian Brashear: For any of your jobs. Wow. Mark Estdale: Yeah. Gillian Brashear: Okay. Mark Estdale: Yeah. We won't remote ... Well, the thing is if it's one voice in something, then fine. I did one production in lockdown with actors all over the world. We were shipping out the same equipment to everybody. But the most expensive thing about a recording studio is the room you sit in. Gillian Brashear: Yeah. Randall Ryan: That's right. Mark Estdale: And ... Gillian Brashear: That's the toughest. Mark Estdale: ... basically, people in their cupboards, under duvets, whatever, will sound different. And the thing is, you've got a disconnect. The actors are dealing with the technical as well as performance. Some actors are massively technical. Some of the best ones don't know what the internet is. Randall Ryan: That is correct. Mark Estdale: So the technical side of it, it's always a compromise, it's always a loss, it's always a degradation of what you can do. So we've made that in June last year. That's the way we roll. And we started mid-June, July last year back into full production. Gillian Brashear: Do people fly over for you? Mark Estdale: For doing stuff from the States? Gillian Brashear: Yeah. Mark Estdale: There's so many Americans over here now. Gillian Brashear: Okay. Mark Estdale: Now that was one of the thing is like 50% of our productions are US. And we are looking for studios to work with in the States right now. But we want to be able to plug them into our way of working. Gillian Brashear: You might have to go back and rebuild that studio again! Mark Estdale: Well, yeah, it still exists. Now, I'm not going to go and do that. We want to do it in a partnership thing. Gillian Brashear: So you're looking for a partner over there who can do something with the same type of setup and have the same relationship. Mark Estdale: But it's having a really great room to be able to do this. This is fundamentally my playground. And the research element of it I'm doing. You are sitting in the Petri Dish. Everything you do is noted. And so, why does that work, why does ... I've done this for decades. And you notice patterns and you see things and you're going, okay, I'm going to change this and I want to be able to take that further. Now I'm understanding more of the science. The science has caught up with the acting. So the dialogue is now current and live between the cognitive sciences and performance. And it is the most exciting. There's three great books on the subject. The one that really got me is a guy called Dick McCaw. He did a book called Training the Actor's Body. Originally, I thought the most important element in performance is one of the things I watch in casting is the physicality. So, how an actor physically enters a character. You can't do it with a 416 in front of you or a U87. Randall Ryan: Well, you can but- Mark Estdale: You can but you are caged. You're in a cage. Gillian Brashear: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. You're doing this and working with them. Mark Estdale: Yeah, yeah. You can do it wonderfully, animation there. The common practice is to do it in a cage. Randall Ryan: Right, right. Mark Estdale: But when you release the beast, holy fuck, you get something different. Randall Ryan: So another technical question. This mic, small capsule. Mark Estdale: Yeah. Randall Ryan: How are you getting the depth? Mark Estdale: Okay. So, it's a 4060, it's a DPA. Randall Ryan: Okay. But what's the technology that makes this give that bottom menu and all that stuff that's around 180 hertz that sometimes you're rolling off, but if it's not there and those harmonics aren't there, you lose that. Mark Estdale: You are listening to a voice. For me, performance is a voice in an environment. So, what we want is something that's natural and neutral. That is the focus. Every mic colors. Randall Ryan: Absolutely. Mark Estdale: And you want a constant coloration. So, there's a distance, the way the mic is placed and everything. We've researched this forever. And it's like working that mic where it is, is like working at U87 at a meter. But you need a good room for it. That's another side of it. And- Randall Ryan: So its polar pattern is a little more omni? Mark Estdale: Yeah, they're omnis. So, I want a really natural sound to it. And the other thing is the more performance capture you're doing, you've got mics attached to people. Yeah. And they're using these mics on the stage. So the performance capture stage we're building is going to be just a very big sound studio. But it's going to be one that's going to have controllable acoustics because I want to put orchestras in there as well. But it's having that playground because when their new studio comes, to be able to connect all the different rooms in the different environments, that means we could do some really crazy shit. And the crazy shit is something that tickles me. Randall Ryan: You realize you can't die because you've got a good 50 years' worth of ideas here. Mark Estdale: Oh God, yeah. I know I can't die. Gillian Brashear: I got to say ... Mark Estdale: But it's ... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Gillian Brashear: Your spirit of experimentation, I applaud. That you're constantly curious and experimenting to get to a more refined connection and truth. I really appreciate that. Mark Estdale: I guess so. Gillian Brashear: Yeah, yeah. Mark Estdale: Yeah, so it's ... Yeah. You only have one life. Gillian Brashear: Mm-hmm. Mark Estdale: And it's like, if we don't enjoy our craft and what we do and can't be supportive in each other's shit, what the fuck's the point? Randall Ryan: I'm kind of with you. Gillian Brashear: I agree. I agree with you fully. Randall? Randall Ryan: Gillian? Gillian Brashear: All right. Randall Ryan: Sure. Gillian Brashear: Thank you so much, Mark. Mark Estdale: Thank you for being here. Gillian Brashear: Mark Estdale, it's fantastic. Mark Estdale: Thank you. It's lovely to have you in our day in the Petri dish. Gillian Brashear: Oh, my gosh. Randall Ryan: I already feel a little more moldy. My cells are dividing as we speak. I don't know. Maybe someone can pull Mark out of his shell someday, right? I really enjoy hearing his perspective and it's a joy to feel the passion that he's got for creativity and really just for our industry. Let's Talk Voiceover is hosted by Gillian Brashear, actor, director, visionary, and me, Randall Ryan, owner of HamsterBall Studios, delivering the world's best talent virtually anywhere. And I can also be found at thevoicedirector.world. You got comments, questions, or just want to let us know what you think, reach out at info@letstalkvoiceover.com. Find us at all your favorite places, GetPodcast, iTunes, Stitcher, Apple Podcast, Podbean. If there are podcasts, we're probably there. Thanks for listening, and we'll talk again real soon.  

LTVO has a new host! An actor and director with production chops, Gillian came from the stages of New York City to the big (Chekhov and Maria) and small screens (CSI: Cyber, Criminal Minds, Legends) in Los Angeles before delving into voice acting, and then directing.  She also narrated the Emmy-winning series Wonder Women.  Her vo credits include Leisure Suit Larry: Reloaded, Lord of the Rings Online, Chivalry 2, Vacation Simulator, and World of Tanks.  Smart, curious, glib and with a wicked wit; she's the perfect person to sit in the virtual cocktail bar and converse with anyone in the industry.  So, welcome, and Let's Talk Voiceover, Gillian Brashear! Gillian Brashear: When I was in New York, there was, oh darn it, a show that it was all about the nudity, but I was seeing it probably 20 years past its prime.  So, I was this acting student…   Randall Ryan: Like Emmanuel? Gillian Brashear: No, it wasn't that, I…OH! (laughs)  I see…is it Oh Calcutta?  But no, it's not that.   Randall Ryan: No that was, wasn't it?   Gillian Brashear: It is Oh Calcutta?   Randall Ryan: Yes, as soon as you said it, it’s like yes   Gillian Brashear: it was still going in New York.  It was…you know, when you go to the strip bars like we do and ther're tired gals, they've done it a lot, it was a bit like that.  Like yeah I'm naked, I'm on stage. Meh (laughs) It just was such a bizarre experience in New York going, okay,well uh, yep, that's a job, I… I guess that's acting.  I don't know!   THEME MUSIC   Randall Ryan Let's talk so Let's Talk Voiceover, Gillian Brashear.   Gillian Brashear: (laughs) Okay let's do it.   Randall Ryan Welcome to this thing that we do called Let's Talk Voiceover, and thanks for doing this, and thanks for wanting to get in and do this. So, I'm curious because even though we talked about it and it's like, would you like to do this thing and you're like, I'd love to do this thing. We never talked about why. So why?   Gillian Brashear: Why do I want to do it?  Well, ultimately I like to play and you're a great play partner.   Randall Ryan: Yes!  you're already better than Brian!   Gillian Brashear: And I love learning about people. I'm excited to hear people's stories. I am excited to hear what they know and what they want to share and what they want to talk about, and actually, honestly, there are questions that I have for people that I've done their work, worked on their work, shall I sa,y on their files and what not that we've recorded and I've worked on, and I have things I want to know and that I want to ask them.   Randall Ryan: Right.  So you're talking like some of the people that you've worked with, the kind of things where you say, I don't know why she chose or he chose to do this, but that's really interesting?  Or are you talking more the techniques that they use to get a specific sound or specific delivery out?   Gillian Brashear: I think both.  You know, when I'm working on somebody's recording, I get into the world that they've created and I become very curious.  Sometimes it's I'm curious how did you come up with that as your portrayal? Sometimes it is literally, how do you make that sound with your voice?  ‘Cause I don't even understand how that comes out of anybody's human body. Yeah. And then sometimes I notice people have incredible technique and I'd like to know about that.  A lot of things.  Sometimes they just sound like they're really fun and I want to hang out with them for a while.  So this might be as close as I ever get.   Randall Ryan: You never know.  And the thing that's really interesting to me listening to the comments that you've said back to me about stuff, because again, you come at this from being an actor, and this may not be accurate, but in my head, you really come at it first from being stage actor and everything else kind of came 2nd 3rd, or is that accurate? Is that not accurate?   Gillian Brashear: Yep.  When I decided that I wanted to actually dive in and be an actor and admit that that was the passion that I had, I wanted to do it in the best way possible, or what that meant to me at the time was I wanted to learn in the place that I thought I would get the best skills and that would really challenge me to be the best that I could be, and for me that was New York stage.   Randall Ryan: So, you probably have told me this before, but I don't remember all the details if you did, because I know you went to drama school.    Gillian Brashear: Yeah.   Randall Ryan: Obviously, not everybody that comes into, at least the stuff that we talk about while they may have had an acting background or a singing background, not everybody has gone to drama school.  You went to acting school.  What led you to do that?   Gillian Brashear: Well, I had always had a passion for it.  I started acting just casually in the things that you do when you're a kid, and then I put it away to do other things: go to school, be a little crazy.  I ended up traveling to Australia and spending some time there and I think getting away from the United States and being in a different place, which was marvelous, for a very long period of time allowed me to look back at my life and really assess what it was that I wanted to do.  So away from the drive and ambition and the, the courses that were sort of served up as young people. You know, this is a path and this is a path and this is a path.  And there just came a point where I realized I this is what I want to do. So, I auditioned for acting school in New York.  I let that decision guide me. I was accepted and there I went.   Randall Ryan: That's really interesting.  This is a total sidebar: what things did you see differently leaving the United States?  And it may have absolutely nothing to do with acting, but just, how do you think that kind of just shaped you as a person and maybe lead you to make some different decisions?   Gillian Brashear: I can say that my time out of the United States has profoundly changed my outlook on life in a good way.  I went there, I had extreme culture shock and given that it's an English-speaking country that's saying a lot.  But I was.  I mean, I was kind of paralyzed for a while.  It took me easily six weeks just to be able to relax, and relax into the environment, and be able to relate to people on the pace that they have there.  But spending enough time there really allowed me to identify the fact that they actually, really they actually enjoy living life more.  They're really invested in enjoying their lives and not so much ambition-driven. Now this, frankly, is when I was there, and it's not that they weren't out doing stuff. There were people doing great things and having businesses and, and doing such, but it was the balance. It's that they had a healthy balance of enjoying their life and socializing and being extremely jovial while also doing the other things in life that you have to do.  And I think that's really my big takeaway.   Randall Ryan: So you think that allowed you in some way to say: yeah, acting.  Because, maybe because acting is not If you're going to get into it to make a lot of money, that's probably not, you know, your top 10 picks? Or some other reason?   Gillian Brashear: Well, again, I think I had a passion for it. I had a desire to do it from the time I was really young.  I mean, honestly, probably six years old, it was a thing for me, and something I got deep joy out of.  The act of pursuing it was very frightening, which is really why I didn't do it, and why I didn't go any farther with it for a really long time.  And at that point, while I was there in Australia, I could no longer deny the fact that, even though I was terrified to do it, I would never resolve the wanting unless I went ahead and tried.  And I just realized, I don't want to spend my life wishing I had done something.  So just go do it, and let the chips fall where they may. Randall Ryan: What was the terror for you?  I ask as a person who went out and did music the same way   Gillian Brashear: Uh, . putting yourself out there.  Really, honestly, it's throwing all the chips on yourself.  It's a big move.  It's bold.  I didn't grow up in a family of artists of really any kind, so there's no system of support for “hey, yeah, and I know this is what you do.”  I mean it wasn't like anybody was holding me back, but it was a pioneer move as far as any upbringing that I had.   Randall Ryan: Right.   Gillian Brashear: And New York is scary! Randall Ryan: Yeah, yeah.   Gillian Brashear: If you haven't been and you listen to all the stories about it, it seemed like a really big, scary place.  Now, it's actually one of my favorite places and I love it, and it doesn't scare me now. But you know, it's all the stuff you don't know, it's your fear of the unknown.  And it's also, you know, the fear of figuring out, can you really, do you really have what it takes to follow through on a dream.    Randall Ryan: Well in New York, while maybe differently than Australia, New York is culture shock. It's culture shock to people who live in the United States, and I would argue that New York is culture shock to people who even come from other big cities.   Gillian Brashear: Absolutely.    Randall Ryan: I love Chicago; Chicago is not New York and vice versa.  New York is its own thing. It's just absolutely its own place. And, sure there are some parallels, but they're just very…you know, L.A.  Those areyour big three cities in the United States and they're just drastically different from one another.   Gillian Brashear: Yes, they are.   Randall Ryan: So one of the things I'm really looking forward to with you doing this; really, I've worked with you in all stages.  I've worked with you as an actor. I've worked with you doing editing and mastering.  I've worked with you where you are directing and I’m fly on the wall with that.  I'm just really fascinated by how in some ways how lockstep we are with a lot of things, but how also very different we are with things. You will hear things and do things that I didn't hear, but that what you heard is correct. And you will do things that are not right or wrong compared to what I do, but they're different.  And sometimes quite frankly, a lot of the things that you have done, I think “Wow, that is different than how I would have done, and I think how you approach that is much better than I would approach that in that situation.”  So that's one of the things that for me I really want to hear, because you have a tremendous amount of insight and I learn from you, and I've watched how you've made me think differently.  So I think, when it comes to talking to somebody, your thought process with that person is a little bit different.  And I also think that there's a lot to be said for just you being a woman actor and how you just are going to have a different kind of sensitivity to stuff than then I certainly will.   Gillian Brashear: Great, thank you.  First, thank you for all of that. (laughs) Um, I think it comes down a lot too for me is that I am essentially a very curious person.  And, so even when I'm listening to somebody in a directing session, I become really curious about the lines and how they're saying it.  And somehow there's something to that, that if you're curious about something, a door opens and suddenly whatever direction needs to be said makes sense.  Does that, does that make sense? (laughs)   Randall Ryan: Yeah, of course, absolutely. It does.  You know, I think all of us are curious in some way.  It's just the angle of curiosity that I will often listen to you go down, or the way that you will talk to an actor and say “I have an idea.”  And I do that too, and other directors that I've seen who I admire do that, but everybody's got a different way of approaching it, and a different way to say it. And I also think again, you know, I look at somebody like you, like my friend Tom Keegan, where you both have an acting background, and sometimes you come up things very differently than say, like myself or Andrea Toyias, who come from a music background, and you also have that music background.  Which by the way, may I say, while I always knew it was there…   Just to tell a little story on Gillian.  There's this Austin singer-songwriter group that I've been in for, you know, 5, 6 years, and it's this really intense thing of, you get a prompt and you got one week to write a two-minute or more song.  Usually fully produced.  I mean, sometimes people don't fully produce them out, but all the people that are in the group, for a lot of them, this is what they do for a living.  So you have like these heavyweights in there, and you're just sticking your little old songs in there.  And I asked her if she wanted to do it, and she kind of said, oh sure.  And I thought, well, it'll be interesting to see if she makes it through the whole semester.  The very first song I heard of hers, I'm listening to her sing…you never told me you could sing like that!   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Randall Ryan: And then we had some weeks where we were asked to collaborate, because that was just part of the the prompt, and we collaborate on a song.  And so now I'm giving her stuff that I would have sang, and I'm not a great singer, and I'm just listening to her bring this whole thing alive and like: why did you never tell me this?  Why did you never tell me that?  It's like you didn't even, you didn't even bother.  Like oh yeah, this thing I do. Sure. Yeah, it's it's this thing. I mean, you're a really, really solid singer.   Gillian Brashear: I…well, thank you again.  I can't say that that's something I really embody thinking about myself.  I go around singing, but it was a whole different thing to write something and then actually sing it and actually record it, and actually put it together.  I've never done that before.  And again, I found the process of being curious about it, curious about writing a song, curious about singing, curious about recording. It was fantastic. Yeah.   Randall Ryan: So what's your takeaway from that? Just for you personally.  Not for the process so much, because you made it all the way through. Gillian Brashear: Yeah.   Randall Ryan: What's your takeaway with that?   Gillian Brashear: My takeaway is I'd like to do more.   Randall Ryan: So what about it makes you want to do more?   Gillian Brashear: Well, the process itself was so invigorating, and opened up this whole new avenue about myself I didn't even know.  I really didn't know.  I know you say it sounds like I was hiding something from you, but I frankly didn't know, Plus the fact that   Randall Ryan: (laughs)   Gillian Brashear: (laughs) that I have these songs, I have these baby songs now.  And when I go back and listen to them I'm really happy about it.  I mean they're not perfect, but I love them!  And I would like more of that.    Randall Ryan: Right.   Gillian Brashear: I think anybody, everybody, even if you don't think you should do it, you should do it, because it's an amazing process.  And fun.   Randall Ryan: So relate it to acting.  What did it teach you about acting?   Gillian Brashear: I think it's that it allowed a creative process that you don't often get.  The issue with acting is that you need someone else to act.  You really do.  And it's hard to explore by yourself.  And this was a way to explore my creativity and my voice and words, and having words come out of me in some sort of a framework of a song.  It's a satisfaction that you get.  It resonates with the same satisfaction that you get as an actor, but it was a way to really let it bloom in a new way and in a new capacity that feeds acting, most certainly.  But just allowed for some…was like a sweet dessert.  Just yummy.   Randall Ryan: (laughs) I love that. And with that: thank you for doing this.  Really, really look forward to however long you and I are engaged in doing this.   Gillian Brashear: I'm looking forward, too.  It's going to be a good adventure and, well, I hope I don't embarrass you too much, but, maybe once or twice I will have to embarrass you. (laughs)   Randall Ryan: You know, that was never an issue for BT.  If he ever had the opportunity to, he would.  So what's new?   Gillian Brashear: Okay.  Game on! (laughs)   Randall Ryan: (laughs) And now we need to come up with a sign off.   Gillian Brashear: Okay. I could go “Alright.” (laughs)   Randall Ryan: That would actually be a fun little inside joke.   Gillian Brashear: (laughs) That would be funny.  Alright.   Randall Ryan: Sure.    Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Randall Ryan: Oh sure.   Gillian Brashear: (laughs) Alright.   Randall Ryan: sure.   Gillian Brashear: Alright   Randall Ryan: sure.   Yeah, it's gonna be a fun ride.  Probably at my expense.  Let's Talk Voiceover is hosted by Gillian Brashear: actor, director, visionary.  And me, Randall Ryan, owner of Hamster Ball Studios, delivering the world's best talent, virtually anywhere.  And I can also be found at thevoicedirector.world.  Got comments, questions or just want to let us know what you think, reach out at info@letstalkvoiceover.com.  Find us at all your favorite places to get podcasts, iTunes, Stitcher, Podbean.  If there are podcasts, we’re probably there.  In the meantime, thank you for listening, and we'll talk again very soon.

Mara Junot is one of those fascinating people you meet that you instantly fall in love with.  Warm, genuine, and easy to talk to.  Funny, inviting, and personable.  And one hell of an actor.  Video games, such as Ikora in Destiny 2, Fortnite, World of Warcraft, Mortal Kombat, and Guild Wars 2.  She's also highly in demand as a narrative and promo actor: ESPN, CNBC, Lifetime, and others.  Oh, and a commercial actor, voicing spots for Target, AT&T, Walmart.  And then that strange and wonderful talent as a live announcer for VHI1 Divas, CNN New Year's Eve with Anderson Cooper...yeah.  She's got crazy chops.  Randall Ryan Can it beat my favorite bad movie line from Mel Gibson's The Patriot?  Of course, if you haven't seen the movie, and by God if you haven't seen the movie, please don't.   Mara Junot (laughs)   Brian Talbot (laughs) Done.   Randall Ryan But, it’s pre-Revolutionary War. So he comes up to this woman, he says, “mind if I sit here?”, and she says “Sure, it's a free country…or at least it will be.”   Mara Junot No, she..uh, uh No she doesn’t! (laughs)   Brian Talbot (laughs)   Mara Junot (laughing) That’s kind of fantastic.     Brian Talbot (laughing) Oh, that’s beautiful.   Mara Junot (laughing) At least it will be.   ThEME MUSIC   Brian Talbot So Let’s Talk Voiceover, Mara Junot!   Mara Junot Let's Talk Voiceover.   Brian Talbot Well, that was pleasant!  I like that.   Mara Junot Excellent.   Randall Ryan Hi, Mara.   Mara Junot. Hi! Randall Ryan How are you, Mara?   Mara Junot I'm great! I've been…been…like messing with real estate and games and all kinds of crazy things like…   Brian Talbot Real estate?  Like what?  What's going on?   Mara Junot I'm home shopping.  Yeah.   Brian Talbot (gasps) Cool!   Mara Junot And in like the worst market in the past 16 years.   Randall Ryan Well, there is that.  There is that.   Brian Talbot  Buy high, sell low!  That's what they say. right?   Mara Junot Literally I think homes are more are 30%...25% more expensive this year than last year.  And last year there were 20% more expensive than the year before.   Brian Talbot See?  Going up, up, up. I love that!   Mara Junot It’s just nuts.  It is like, I mean literally looking at one place, in, I think, six hours they had 140 offers.   Randall Ryan Oh, jeez.   Brian Talbot Isn't that insane?   Mara Junot It is so nuts.   Brian Talbot People who want to sell their house nowadays, they literally go hang out somewhere for one day.  They come back with multiple offers over asking at ridiculous prices.  The only problem with that is if you're not leaving the area then you have to buy in that market…   Mara Junot: Right?   Brian Talbot … and that becomes the challenge, right? So   Randall Ryan Yeah, that is a problem.   Mara Junot Yeah, it's nuts.   Brian Talbot Well that's very cool though.  I mean, you know, home ownership, American dream.   Mara Junot Absolutely, absolutely. So fingers crossed all is going well so far knock on wood.  But yeah, this market, you guys, if you're, if you don't need to buy a house right now, do not buy a house.   Brian Talbot Don't, yeah. Yeah.   Mara Junot God!  Insanity!   Randall Ryan Other than that, you got a little project that you've been working on of late.  Just, you know, something came up, I don't know, it's something,   Mara Junot Yeah! Yeah, little little project.  Um I just,…I am a new actress in a existing role in a very, very popular game, happens to be called Destiny 2.   Randall Ryan Mm hm.   Mara Junot Has a teeny tiny little fan base; might have heard of it, but…   Brian Talbot Nice!    Mara Junot Yeah!   Brian Talbot Congratulations!   Mara Junot Thank you.  I'm, I’m like crazy stoked about it.  Like I'm, I'm just overwhelmed at the reception that I've received from the fans, ‘cause I kind of was dreading it because this is a long-established role.   Randall Ryan Sure.   Mara Junot A marvelous actress, Gina Torres. I'm sure we all know her from Suits and Firefly and lots of other fantastic shows, and she's been established in that in that role for quite some time.  And so, you know, I've, I've never quite been in a position like that um in, in a game that was so popular and has such a big fan base with something so established.  But everybody has been extremely, extremely kind and welcoming me to the community and, I'm just, I'm just thrilled to pieces ‘cause I kind of was scared I was going to be (laughs) eaten by wolves when, when this happened.   Randall Ryan Well, yeah, ‘cause any time, almost in some ways it doesn't even matter if they're, if they're good or not and that's…   Mara Junot Right!  You like what you like.   Randall Ryan Right.   Mara Junot You know, you get attached to the naturally so, you know, somebody's established a character a certain way and you've been hearing it in your ear a certain way and, no matter how great of a mimic you are…   Randall Ryan Right.   Mara Junot …you're just not gonna be able to capture all of that.  So, fortunately, Bungie has been just excellent and you know, has just kind of allowed me to to be me while still trying to capture the essence of the character, Ikora, as much as as much as I can.   Brian Talbot That is excellent.    Randall Ryan But that's what they should do because…   Mara Junot Right   Randall Ryan …if you try to do what Ms. Torres did… Mara Junot Right.   Randall Ryan …first of all, you're gonna fail.   Mara Junot Right!   Randall Ryan Because you said you're never gonna be what she is…   Brian Talbot Yeah.   Randall Ryan …and then what's the purpose of having somebody else.   Mara Junot Right.    Randall Ryan That's the whole point of hiring any actor is let them be the actor, let them be.  You bring a piece of yourself to what it is or what's the point?   Brian Talbot Right?   Mara Junot Exactly.  But you know, it is just such a tricky situation because at the same time you want to honor enough of what's already been established and what people have already fallen in love with, right?  And so finding one's essence, you know, in a character that's kind of this elusive thing.  You know, you're just like, okay, well,  how much is it the voice?  Is it the, is it just an attitude?  It's hard to not get in your head about it.  Especially, you know, when you are a musical sort of person, like I am and you know, I am very good at soundalikes and things, and so it's hard for me when I hear somebody else…’cause I do a lot of soundalike sort of work…when I hear somebody else, and I'm used to trying to match, you know, as closely as possible. And so this concept of like, “no, we just kind of need that essence, but be you and bring your own flair to it.”  It's just this sort of uncanny valley of weirdness (laughs) for the performer because you're like, you know, am I giving you what you really want?   Brian Talbot Really?  You…you want mine? You…me?  Me?   Mara Junot Right.  (laughs) Yeah.   Brian Talbot Well, and, and the other hard part about that is you don't want to end up being the new Becky against the old Becky from Roseanne, right?    Mara Junot Right.   Brian Talbot Or the new Darren versus the old Darren, right?   Mara Junot Right.   Brian Talbot You like Dick York, or do you like Dick Sargent?    Mara Junot (laughs)   Brian Talbot I don’t know, they’re just different.  You know, you gotta bring what you bring.   Mara Junot Right.   Brian Talbot Bring what you bring to the ball game.   Mara JunotSo you do play?   Brian Talbot Uh not that game.   Mara Junot Oh, gotcha, gotcha.   Brian Talbot But I watch Roseanne and I watched Bewitched   Randall Ryan (laughs)   Mara Junot (laughs)   Brian Talbot And I spend way too much time watching old TV shows that haven't been on the air for 40 years. So   Mara Junot That’s a train wreck right there.   Brian Talbot I got time, I got time on my hands.  Okay, I'm just gonna say it out loud.  I've got uh…   Mara Junot (laughs)   Brian Talbot It's really cool when you have that opportunity to take over a role for good reasons and add your own flair to it and add your own touch to it, because it can really, for a player or a viewer, depending on what it is, it can really expand the depth of that character.   Mara Juno Absolutely.  And that's what I hope to do.   Brian Talbot And I imagine the writers are probably excited because once they get to know you a little bit, they can start to build some of those kinds of characteristics into the character or adapt their writing just a little bit of that character, to bring out some of the additional stuff that you bring to the table.  So that's wonderful.   Mara Junot Right, right.  Hopefully that is the goal.   Brian Talbot Did you get to meet the writers?   Mara Junot Not in person, but I have spoken with many of them…   Brian Talbot Good.   Mara Junot …and the whole team has just been absolutely, absolutely wonderful.  I just couldn't ask for a nicer team of people to work with and yeah, it's been a really a nice smooth transition.  So.   Randall Rya That’s great.   Mara Junot It's exciting.  It's super exciting.   Brian Talbot So do you have any advice if you're trying to replace someone that's existing?  Like, um, I don't know, like if I wanted to try and replace Randy.   Mara Junot (laughs)   Brian Talbot Is there something that you should or shouldn't do?  I don’t know.   Mara Junot The inimitable Randy?  I mean…   Brian Talbot Hypothetically, of course.   Mara Junot It’s so elusive.  I just don't know if that's possible.   Brian Talbot I just I'm just putting it out there for conversation's sake.   Mara Junot(laughs)  Well, first stay up till one a.m. Start there.   Brian Talbot Note to self: cancel Randy auditions.   Randall Ryan (laughs)   Mara Junot (laughs)  We're gonna cancel the Randy cancel.   Brian Talbot Uh.  Cancel the Randy replacement auditions.  Uh, Okay.  (laughs)   Randall Ryan I am sending out a spec for that in the next week or so.  So you should be getting…   Brian Talbot? Are you?   Randall Ryan Yeah, you should be getting an audition from me because you know, to replace myself.   Mara Junot (laughs)   Brian Talbot (laughs) I get the opportunity to audition to replace Randy on the Brian and Randy podcast.  There you go. (laughs)   Mara Junot Oh, God I love it.   Randall Ryan But you know, if you could play both sides, just think of it that way.  Think of the monetization opportunities.   Brian Talbot Yeah, no, but yeah, no, no, no. Yeah.  Um, yeah, but if you can play both sides, you know? Um…(laughs)   Randall Ryan Right! Exactly.   Mara Junot (laughs)   Brian Talbot Right!  Right.  Exactly!   Randall Ryan You've got this.  So now, when you get the script just do exactly that, just don't think about it, do exactly that…   Brian Talbot Uh huh.   Randall Ryan …and you should be fine.   Brian Talbot Uh huh.  Uh huh.   Mara Junot (laughs)   Brian Talbot No, no, no. Three in a row. Can you mix it up a little bit?  Uh huh. Uh, huh.  Uh, huh!   Randall Ryan I think he's got it!   Brian Talbot See that was good.  That was good.  (laughs)   Randall Ryan Perfect.   Brian Talbot Oh my gosh, alright.  Back to the..   Mara Junot Dead ringer.   Brian Talbot …(laughs) back to something that people actually want to listen to. How about that?   Randall Ryan Oh, that's overrated.   Brian Talbot So Mara, that's absolutely amazing.  But I know that that's not the only thing going on in your world. What else have you been doing?   Mara Junot Oh goodness.   Brian Talbot Especially over the last year with all the challenges and changes that people have been going through.  I know you've kind of been going like gangbusters.   Mara Junot Yeah.  You know, it definitely has been, of course, just psychologically, it's been a trying past year for everybody.  Fortunately I guess, for me ,I'm already quite a bit of a homebody and don't really leave the house much anyway.  I mean, I literally cannot leave the house for two weeks and don't even notice. Like between Amazon grocery deliveries and constantly being glued to my booth, it's just not that big of a life change for me.   Brian Talbot Right?  Right?   Mara Junot Except wearing the mask.  But..   Brian Talbot Lockdown?  I got this.   Mara Junot Yeah, pretty much!  You know I mean I started my career in a smaller town, and I have been running my own home studio for over 12 years now, so I kind of was an advantage that a lot of talent,  especially talent in big cities like Los Angeles and New York and Chicago, you know, where they're just used to going into studios and only auditioning on their phones,perhaps, or just some sort of portable rig at home that didn't have to be broadcast-quality, they kind of had to start from scratch and the pressure of that.  I can only imagine trying to keep everything running smooth.  Brian Talbot Oh, It has to be overwhelming.   Mara Junot Oh, absolutely.   Brian Talbot For people who are talent to now have to understand how to be an engineer.    Mara Junot Absolutely.   Brian Talbot But it's also surprising to me how many people didn't already have a home studio set up.    Mara Junot No.   Brian Talbot I mean I just, I just kind of figured that everybody had one by now.   Randall Ryan No.   Mara Junot No.  I mean again, if you're in a major market, especially like Los Angeles where there's studios everywhere…   Brian Talbot Yeah.   Mara Junot …you just don't have to.  And I can understand why somebody wouldn't want to invest in, you know, a $2,000 microphone and then, you know, a $10,000 booth, and…   Brian Talbot Yeah.   Mara Junot …and all that stuff when you can just go to the session, we have the client pay the studio fee when he's there.   Brian Talbot Sure. Sure.   Mara Junot So I get it, but it is a hot mess trying to figure it all out.  So I was fortunate in that regard.  Business on my end has been really good because I was prepared, in part. I'm sure that's not all, it wasn't all my tech skills, but it didn't hurt anything.   Randall Ryan No.   Mara Junot So.   Randall Ryan No, it doesn't.   Mara Junot (laughs)   Randall Ryan Where I'm kind of with Brian on things, ‘cause I've seen this too, of course.  Yeah, we can book that person, but I already know we have to put them in a studio.   Mara Junot Yeah.   Randall Ryan But there's also a difference that I don't understand.  Let's just say you live in Los Angeles.  The amount of time that it takes to go from studio to studio to studio to do auditions, if that is what you're doing.   Mara Junot Mmm hmm.   Randall Ruan At least having something that is audition-quality…   Mara Junot Right.   Randall Ryan …at your living space.  It doesn't necessarily even have to be final-quality.   Brian Talbot And that's not hard to do.   Randall Ryan No, it's not hard to do.   Brian Talbot Yeah, that's not a super high bar. Right?   Mara Junot Yeah, exactly.  You can get great audio on your, on your iPhone if you're in a quiet enough space.  So I think that's frankly what a lot of people were doing.  But now. it was like overnight when the pandemic hit, and it's really not fair to the talent to be perfectly honest.   Randall Ryan Of course.   Mara Junot I saw a big shift in the demands.  It was like, it went from lockdown to “Hey do you have a U87 a and a double wall booth and a this and that?”  And it's like come on!   Randall Ryan Right.   Mara Junot It's just kind of crazy.   Brian Talbot Yeah.   Randall Ryan Well, there is the other side of that, that has also been a problem.  Well, you see that with almost anything, right?  You see that with all kinds of social issues where something does need to occur, and then there becomes an overreaction to whatever that is.  And I think in a totally different way…   Mara Junot Right.   Randall Ryan …that's what you have here.  Like, “ oh well since people are gonna have to be at home, surely you’re tricked out just like it was when you were coming into the studio, right?”    Mara Junot Riiight!   Randall Ryan  And that expectation is just whacked.   Mara Junot It’s totally whacked!   Brian Talbot Yeah, can I hear you on the U87, the 414, and the Sennheiser shotgun, please, right?   Mara Junot (laughs)   Randall Ryan Yeah, right.  And the 421.   Mara Junot Which fortunately, I have but most talent don't.  Yeah.   Brian Talbot Right.  I got a Radio Shack mic.  What do you want?    Randall Ryan Yeah, can go back in your vault?  Maybe just for this one session, can you pull out an AKG 414..the 414B,  not the C, like…   Mara Junot Right.   Brian Talbot Yeah, yeah.   Mara Junot Yeah, it's nuts. I mean, yeah.  And it's not as if, you know, everybody's on one page as far as microphones, either.  I mean, I've literally done games where, most games they're like, oh you know the TLM 103 or the U87, but I have some developers, they want the 416, you know?    Randall Ryan Right.   Mara Junot And so it's, it's just nuts.  What do you guys think in terms of that?  Because I hear arguments on both sides.  Some people say look, this whole mic debate thing is just long and drawn out and unnecessary, because if you're going to go into a studio, every celebrity is going to be on that exact same damn mic, nobody's tweaking it for their voice and finding the right model and the right this; everybody's either on the shotgun or they're on their U87 or whatever mic they happen to have in studio.  So it doesn't really matter.  It's just about what sounds good.  But then other people are like:  “oh no. You need the rejection of the shotgun of the 416 or you need, you know?  What do you guys think?  Is it ultimately about just what sounds good on your damn voice?  Or is there really some big differences that you find it's kind of necessary to make sure that you're close enough?   Brian Talbot For me personally, I've been using the same mic for 30 years.   Mara Junot Wow, which one?   Brian Talbot Uh, the Audio Technica..   Randall Ryan Mr. Microphone?   Mara Junot (laughs)   Brian Talbot …4033.  It's the original, it's the original 4033.   Mara Junot Yeah.   Brian Talbot And that went through a bunch of iterations and some tech spec changes and all that kind of stuff.  But I have the original 4033.  And it's funn,y because I was moving from New York City back to Indiana, and I didn't know what I was going to do.  So I ended up buying a bunch of studio gear, and I went microphone shopping.  So I went to a Guitar Center, Sam Ash, or whatever it was, right?  And they literally had like 200 microphones in a room.  And so I put on a set of headphones and then I just went around and pushed the button for each and every single one of them and listened to my voice, listened to my voice, listened to my voice on every single one, including the 414 and the 416 and the U87…   Mara Junot Yeah.   Brian Talbot …and the 103.  And, I mean I listened on everything.  And I figured out that, for my voice specifically, what I really loved about the 4033 is that it gave me enough bottom end, but I'm not like that deep announcer voice   Mara Junot Right, right.   Brian Talbot But it was able to resonate what is down there, and then it was able to take my midrange and really put a crisp edge on it.   Mara Junot Interesting.   Brian Talbot And so I'm like, okay this is the mic.   Mara Junot Yeah.   Brian Talbot Right?  And now, obviously I've gone into studios and used all sorts of different kinds of mics and all that kind of stuff.  I still like my mic.   Mara Junot Right.  Right.  “And nobody's ever stopped you on a project and said oh we can't work with you because..   Brian Talbot ..you don't you don't have the right mic.!   Mara Junot Right.   Brian Talbot And in fact, I have had comments on even recording from home, right?  How clean and what a great sound I can get coming out of my mic.    Mara Junot Mmm hmm.   Brian Talbot I mean at the time it was a $400 mic.  I don't know what the going rate on something like this is these days, but it's still it's nowhere close to what you're paying for the Neumanns or some of the higher end Sennheisers or any of the other stuff, right?  People spend so much time focused on the microphone.  Like the tool is gonna make the difference.  It's like well why don't you, first of all, spend the time working on your environment, so it doesn't sound like you're standing in your shower…   Mara Junot Right.   Brian Talbot …recording.  And then after that, work on your technique, for God's sakes.    Mara Junot Right.   Brian Talbot Work on your acting.  Work on your delivery, work on your performance.    Mara Junot Right!   Brian Talbot? You know what?    Mara Junot Right.   Brian Talbot I have never, ever had someone say “Man, it just sounds like you're on a bad mic.”  I've never had that.   Mara Junot Right, right   Brian Talbot And so everyone who does this get so obsessed by things like,”well I think I should upgrade to the…” No, whatever.   Mara Junot Right.  I agree.  And I've heard plenty of people on the wrong mic for them, I have to say.  You know where they’re too sibilant and too bright or you know…   Brian Talbot Absolutely.  Absolutely.   Randall Ryan And that's usually what the wrong mic is.  There are exceptions to this, but it usually takes a characteristic of your voice that you DON’T want.   Mara Junot Right.   Brian Talbot And overaccentuates it.  Yeah.  so Randy, what's your take on this?   Randall Ryan Well, you already said it.  The very first thing is your environment.   Mara Junot Right   Randall Ryan I had a project where, let's just say there was a bit of a disagreement.  It was something that was…   Mara Junot (laughs)   Randall Ryan …that was supposed to be done at a particular studio, and they were doing all of these measurements.  They were literally measuring from the actor's lips to the mic, and making and taking pictures and making   Brian Talbot Oh, my God…   Randall Ryan Right.   Mara Junot Wow.  Wow.   Randall Ryan They changed preamps to make sure they were getting the right sound, which…I'm sorry…if you can actually tell the difference between one preamp and another when everything else is exactly the same, God love you.  By the way, the people that you're making this for cannot, will not…   Mara Junot They can’t.   Randall Ryan ..and never will.   Mara Junot (laughs) Right.   Randall Ryan Get over your bad self.   Mara Junot (laughs)   Brian Talbot And make sure that preamp catches a very effective “AAAHHHHHH!!!”   Mara Junot (laughs)   Randall Ryan Yeah!  And…so the pandemic hits, right?  So they continue this project with people's home studios, and where the disagreement came over…   Mara Junot Oh, God.   Randall Ryan …was an actor was in her booth and had her door open, and I could hear traffic noise going by.   Mara Junot Sure!   Brian Talbot Wel,l you know, it gets a little stuffy and you need some air flow.  So I mean, come on Randy.   Mara Junot Wow.   Randall Ryan And so I asked, “Hey actor, is it possible for you to close the door to your booth?”  I said “Can you do that?”  She said yes.   Mara Junot Does she normally not??   Randall Ryan Well, that's not actually the point.   Mara Junot (laughs) Point? That’s, uh..I’m sorry..   Brian Talbot Although it's a good side question.  It's a hell of a good side question.   Randall Ryan The same people freaked out because we had changed her environment.   Brian Talbot You changed the environment…   Mara Junot Are you kidding?   Brian Talbot …right in the middle of the record.  How dare you change the environment!  Well, it sounded like shit before. What do you want?   Randall Ryan So you're actually so hyped that you want a specific preamp that you shipped stuff to her, but yet, you don't bother to tell her to close the door to her goddamn studio as trucks go by.    Mara Junot Right. Right   Brian Talbot Ugh.   Randall Ryan So sometimes engineers don't know what they're talking about. They went to school, they did stuff.  Absolutely agree: Very first, number one thing is your environment.   Mara Junot Yeah,  exactly.   Randall Ryan First and foremost.   Mara Junot I’m with you there.   Randall Ryan A Neumann U87 in the middle of a concrete room is going to sound terrible.   Mara Junot Oh, totally.   Randall Ryan Just ‘cause I said it as a joke earlier. a Mr. Mmicrophone in a pristine environment…   Mara Junot (laughs)   Randall Ryan …is going to sound better than that.  Now. I'm not saying that's what you do, but the point being that will sound better.   Mara Junot Right.  Right.   Randall Ryan So, don't do the first thing.   Mara Junot Yeah.   Brian Talbot Well, and actually don't do the second thing either.   Randall Ryan Well, don’t do the second thing either. Right.   Mara Junot (laughs)   Brian Talbot Don't do, don't do don't do a Mr Microphone I’m in the middle of..   Randall Ryan Don’t do a Mr. Microphone.   Mara Junot Darn.  I was dusting off my Mr Microphone right now.   Brian Talbot (laughs)  Hey, good looking.  Be back to pick you up later. Randall RyanDusting off?  Mine’s just sitting right over here!   Mara Junot (laughs)   Randall Ryan That’s what I’m talking to you on.  What are you talking about?   Mara Junot (laughing) I know, who knew I could have been using it all this time?   Brian Talbot See?   Mara Junot Save me a lot of headache.   Brian Talbot Yeah, Mara. Um, for this time, can you hook up the Mr Microphone please?  That's uh..   Mara Junot (laughs)   Brian Talbot …we want to make sure we get that, uh, Mr. Microphone sound. (cups mouth) Hey good looking, be back to pick you up later.   Randall Ryan (laughs)   Mara Junot (laughing) Oh my God…I always sound like this.   Randall Don't you use the close and play for your speakers?   Mara Junot Yeah, of course!  Of course.   Randall Ryan Right.  Doesn’t everybody?   Brian Talbot Absolutely.   Mara Junot  But I forgot about the Mr Microphone part. Brian Talbot See?   Randall Ryan (laughs)   Brian Talbot No, uh…this is the funny part.  I'll have people who know me, right?  And they’re like, “I really want to get into, uh, voiceover because, uh, people tell me I have a great voice.    Mara Junot (laughing) I know!   Brian Talbot “What microphone do you think I should buy?”  And I’m like, well, why don't you practice first?   Mara Junot (laughs)   Randall Ryan Yeah.  Yeah, there’s that.   Brian Talbot Yeah, yeah, uh, that's a good idea, but uh…what microphone do you think I should buy?   Mara Junot Oh, God, I know!  It is asking a lot though.  We…I mean the tech side really, we are asking so much.  I mean, already talent have so much on their back with self-directing…   Randall Ryan You do.   Mara Junot …trying to interpret the specs; we have to mind read, we have to do all these things.  And now, trying to learn Twisted Wave, or some people think they need Pro Tools and all this crazy stuff, and it's so much,  it is so, so much.  I do not envy anyone who has not had to deal with the tech side before.  Because it really is, you're using different sides of your brain too, you know?  I mean, you're going from this right brain performance, “I just want to act and do the art.”  And then now you're like…   Randall Ryan Right.   Mara Junot You know, you're totally switching gears, and some people's brains just aren't wired that way, to be fair, you know?   Randall Ryan They're not, but I will say this, in all honesty and fairness: if you are looking at this as a business person, which is part of what your career is, right?    Mara Junot Right.   Brian Talbot Absolutely.   Randall Ryan You're not just artists, you are an entrepreneur who happens to be selling a creative artistic product.    Mara Junot True.   Brian Talbot So why would you not?   Randall Ryan Right.   Mara Junot Right.   Randall Ryan And you don't necessarily have to say, I'm going to go to Full Sail and I'm going to learn to become an audio engineer.  This is voice over.   Mara Junot Right.   Randall Ryan It is one microphone, it is generally one environment, and you really don't, in most cases, have to truly be an engineer.  You can even pay somebody to come and set yourself up and just kind of leave it and go.  To have that environment, you're now talking an investment in your career.  You know, musicians, if you want to say, “all I want to do is play guitar. Somebody else should provide the guitar.”  Who would ever say that?    Mara Junot Right.   Randall Ryan So I also think that the system that has been there in place so far has in some ways been a detriment, because if you learn something about what makes the whole tech work…and it doesn't have to get really deep,…we don't have to start getting in there and going to like, “should I get a dynamic Eq or should I get something that's a static EQ?”  You don't have to go that deep.  What's a good microphone?  What's a good preamp?  Is your environment good?  How do you set your levels?  Do you know what those levels are?  That's what you need to know. Mara Junot Right   Randall Ryan And also understand, in the same way as singer has to learn mic technique, you have to learn that, right?   Brian Talbot Absolutely.   Mara Junot Right.    Randall Ryan How is that any less tech, really, when it comes down to it than, do you know where to set your preamp?     Mara Junot Right.   Randall Ryan You are doing the same thing.  So, I, I also think that when I hear some actors say, “all I want to do is act” well, that's just great.  I'm sure all you want to do is act, and you want your agent to take care of your business side of things, and your accountant and…No.  You are an entrepreneur.  You are a creative person.  This is part of what you have to do.  And by the way…   Mara Junot Right.   Randall Ryan …if you do learn that, the world, because of how technology has changed, is kind of opening up to you.   Brian Talbot It opens up wide.   Randall Ryan You can do projects…   Mara Junot Right   Randall Ryan  …with people in Australia and Europe, and…   Brian Talbot Absolutely.   Randall Ryan Yeah, there are challenges with that, absolutely.  But, there are also advantages of doing that. So,   Mara Junot Right.   Brian Talbot Yep.   Mara Junot. So true.  So, so true.  Now it's, it's just kind of learning a language, you know, it's just, yeah, it comes with the territory.   Brian Talbot You're so lucky because you get paid to talk.   Mara Junot (laughs)   Randall Ryan (laughs)   Brian Talbot  And, and, and, and engineer, and run a business, and market yourself.   Mara Junot And interact, and market.   Randall Ryan Well, no, but…  I understand that and I do have sympathy for people who this has been thrust on.  Because that's not the way the system has worked, there is a certain amount of, “wow, this is a lot to deal with, right at this moment in time.”   Mara Junot Right.   Randall Ryan And people are asking you for crazy things, and that's not right, either.  But at the same time, just like any other business, this is the market.  This is what you have to do…   Mara Junot Right.   Randall Ryan …and this is not the career you have to choose.   Mara Junot Right.   Randall Ryan So if you're going to do this…   Mara Junot Right.   Brian Talbot And I think it's just accelerated for some people. But I've had a home studio since the early 2000s.    Mara Junot Right.   Randall Ryan Right.   Mara Junot Right.  Same.   Brian Talbot This should be nothing new to people.   Randall Ryan Right.   Mara Junot Right.   Brian Talbot And with that said, I will also tell you, I recently went in for my first in-studio session in forever,  forever.  And it was wonderful.  It was phenomenal to be sitting in a booth…   Mara Junot Right.   Brian Talbot …talking with the engineer and the client, you know?   The client was actually remote, but just to have human contact doing a session and all that stuff, face-to-face with some people and stuff like that was phenomenal.  So..   Randall Ryan Absolutely.   Brian Talbot  I love that.  I absolutely love that.   Mara Junot Totally   Brian Talbot And I missed tha.  And it was so great to be able to do that. But at the same time, I think this is just the minimum bar.   Randall Ryan Right.   Mara Junot Yeah.  And, I mean, now we're getting, too, into…especially in the world of video games…now, it's getting to the part that I dread: a lot of on camera technique, which I have none of.  I know nothing about knowing my marks and lighting and all this stuff.  But more and more, I'm seeing auditions where they want to, what they call it, the cowboy shot?  From your hips up and all this and you got to do all this stuff and they want stuff off book… and I'm like, are you kidding me?  And they want it like the next day.  And I'm like, this is kind of, I didn't sign up for this.    Randall Ryan Yeah.   Brian Talbot Yeah.   Mara Junot You know, I wanted to be a voice actor, not on camera, but sadly that's kinda changing too.   Randall Ryan Well, we'll see how that goes.  I mean, I'm not going to say that it won't, and if it does it's gonna happen over time, but I also think that some of the expectation…we'll see, right?   Mara Junot Right.   Brian Talbot Well, the bottom line is they can ask for it.   Randall Ryan Rrrright…   Mara Junot Well, and they'll get it.  I mean, there's plenty of people who do both.   Brian Talbot There are some people who can do it, right?   Mara Junot Yeah.   Brian Talbot And then there are other people who will specialize in in other areas and all that kind of stuff.  That's the other side of it.  Voice acting has changed so dramatically through specialization that it's insane. I mean, you can make an absolute killing of a career doing nothing but medical.   Mara Junot Right   Randall Ryan Right.   Brian Talbot Right?  If you do nothing else, except you're able to pronounce all those goofy, long, stupid medical words, right?    Mara Junot (laughs) Right.   Brian Talbot You can make a killer career out of that.    Mara Junot Absolutely.   Brian Talbot The specialization keeps getting deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper.  Look at all the people that make an absolute killer living off of nothing but political.   Mara Junot Right.   Randall Ryan Right.   Brian Talbot And you would think, oh, well that's every two years or every four years.  Nope.  no, no, no, no, no.    Mara Junot Yeah.   Brian Talbot It is a continual cycle.    Mara Junot Oh, yeah.   Brian Talbot It's a continual cycle,  it never ever, ever stops.   Mara Junot It’s so true.   Brian Talbot So the opportunity is not that you'll do everything, but you can find the specialties that fit your niche.   Mara Junot Yeah.   Brian Talbot Right?  And I think that that's really kind of a cool part of all this.   Randall Ryan Mm hmm.  Well, speaking of specialties, the thing that has always fascinated me that you have done that, I would love to hear more about and that is the whole live announcing thing.  I know…   Brian Talbot Ooh…that is a specialty.   Randall Ryan …a small handful number of, of live announcers, but this is something that you started to do.   Brian Talbot Yeah.   Randall Ryan And how did that even come about?  It just kind of came out of the blue, didn't it?   Mara Junot Yeah.  It really was just kind of a regular audition.  I wouldn't even say it's a specialty of mine. I mean, I definitely…I'm fairly comfortable with it.  I mean I'm extremely introverted, so the idea of having to, like, be anywhere near visible on a stage is a whole different shebang. But, my first big live announced gig was, oh my God, was that 2014?    Randall Ryan Was it really that long ago?   Mara Junot Oh yeah, I think it was 2014, it might have been 2013, but it was for the VH1 Divas Holiday Special…   Randall Ryan Right.   Mara Junot …in Brooklyn, and that was unbelievable.  I mean, I'm talking literally some of the biggest divas were on the stage just a few feet away from me. I'm talking Mariah Carey, Patti Labelle, Shaka Khan…   Brian Talbot Oh my.  Gosh.  How cool.   Mara Junot Yeah.  It really didn't even sink in until it was all over.  I didn't realize I was kind of just in this trance of like, do not mess up, just go, just go with it.    Brian Talbot Right?  That's the hard part about live!   Mara Junot Yeah.   Brian Talbot You're sitting there and you're just, you're like wet your pants nervous…   Mara Junot Yeah.   Brian Talbot …about saying the wrong word or flubbing a pronunciation or everything!   Mara Junot Well, and the best part two is I had done an AirBnB.   I've decided I'm never going to AirBnB in New York City ever again for work, because I've done it in the past and I always regret it.  This situation, we wound up in some lovely woman's apartment where the whole building, it was like, I don't know, 10, 12 story building.  And,, let's just say four stories up or more, there was some smoke detector that was going off…   Randall Ryan Mmm hmm   Mara Junot on like the fourth floor.    Brian Talbot. Ugh.   Mara Junot But yet, you know, it's those old buildings, you know, like built in 1802 or whatever.  So you can hear it just,…   Brian Talbot Yeah, it’s just cardboard walls.   Mara Junot Yeah!  So you hear it throughout the entire building.  So literally, approximately every, I think it was every 30 or 45 seconds..   Randall Ryan (laughs) Oh God   Mara Junot …from the time we got there, it was just like, BRRRT!  GRRRTT!  And so all night I could not sleep. And this is like, I have a big event, I don't do well with no sleep.    Brian Talbot Ugh.   Mara Junot And this is my first big life announced for Viacom VH1 and I'm like, you gotta be kidding me.  I'm not gonna get any sleep.    Randall Ryan (laughs)   Mara Junot So, all night we're just fighting the chirp.  I'm like burying my head in pillows.  I literally had like three pillows over my head.  I'm putting in ear buds, trying listening to brown noise and just BRRTTT! BRRTTT!  all night.  Of course, you can’t get comfortable because like…oh and the radiator didn't turn on.  We figured out how to turn the radiator on like at five a.m.   Randall Ryan Oh, jeez.   Mara Junot (laughs) Or something, so I'm just freezing, I'm hearing chirps every 30 seconds, I can't sleep.  Then the best part.  So we finally like get a couple of hours. Like okay,  got time to get ready to go for a rehearsal,because we have to do like a little quick rehearsal of a few things.  Just kind of how the board's work and, and all this stuff…and we get locked in.  I've never been in a situation…   Randall Ryan Locked in?   Mara Junot …where somebody can get locked inside an apartment!  But this is what happened.  Apparently, there were two doors in her apartment.  One was covered up with shoes.  She had this lovely shoe collection…   Brian Talbot (laughs)   Mara Junot …and she covered up the second door with this big curtain and all of her damn shoes!   Brian Talbot Because, why would you need a door? (laughs)   Randall Ryan (laughs)   Mara Junot I'm like, I'm like, who designs this crap?  So she somehow, I guess she had left a note in the instructions.  Like make sure you don't…   Randall Ryan look behind the shoes? (laughs)   Mara Junot Yeah, I don't, I don't know.  So we had no idea there was a second way out.  But somehow we managed to like, we twisted the lock and we shouldn't have, and next thing you know we can't open the door from the inside.    Randall Ryan Oh my gosh.   Mara Junot It was bolted from the inside, and we don't have a key and the owner is not answering her phone ,and I've got to be at rehearsal in like (laughing) an hour and a half, and we have no idea if and when she's going to answer her phone, if and when I'm going to make it, and how I'm going to explain to my agent that I flew all the way from Colorado to Brooklyn only to get locked in my AirBnB…   Brian Talbot That is perfect.   Mara Junot (laughing)…and not be at the actual event.    Randall Ryan Wow.   Mara Junot Um, so luckily we were able to figure out that there was a second door.  We threw all her shoes on the floor, sorry; bill us whatever, clawed our way out the apartment and like, booked it to Brooklyn.  But it was absolute madness.    Randall Ryan Oh, gosh.   Mara Junot So just the fact that I was running on no sleep, crazy, frantic frame of mind. It was a whole blur for me, the fact that I got it done.  And it really wasn't until I did the last announcement and walked out…the audience is kind of leaving and I'm looking around and I look up at the building and I just realized what had just happened.  And I'm like, I just did that, I just made it work.  I don't know how I did that, but it happened and it worked.   Brian Talbot That's fun.    Mara Junot (laughs) It was an adventure.    Brian Talbot Of course, the creepy voice of the Saw character coming and going…   Mara Junot (laughs)   Brian Talbot “Welcome to the luxury apartment, Mara”   Mara Junot Oh my God, it was a moment, it was a moment of panic. (laughs)   Brian Talbot you can get out, but you have a decision to make first.   Mara Junot Live announce, It really is a lot of fun if you want to kind of push yourself into a new uh, I don't know if you're just getting a little bored with sitting in the booth, self-directing yourself, there's nothing to charge your batteries, like…   Brian Talbot See that's why I do production though.  That's, that's the hard part for me.  I do production so I can do it over and over and over again…   Mara Junot Right.   Brian Talbot …until I get it exactly the way I want it to sound.   Mara Junot Yeah.  That's the beauty of it, right?    Brian Talbot And any time I get put into a live position again…I came from radio a long, long time ago and all that kind of stuff, but…I've always gravitated towards production.   Mara Junot Right.   Brian Talbot Because the live thing,  I just, man, I just, I get tense, I get uptight, I can't relax, I can't enjoy it.   Mara Junot Yeah.   Brian Talbot I'm just, I'm always on edge.  But God bless those people who can do that and do that comfortably all the time.    Mara Junot Right, right.    Brian Talbot It's a different skill.   Mara Junot It is a different skill.   Randall Ryan How much did that spur just being able to do more live announcing?  It's like, well you've got this very high profile thing under your belt.   Mara Junot You know, it's a good question, because I have to say, any time I've done any sort of live announce thing, nobody's necessarily said, oh, I saw your reel or whatever this and that.    Randall Ryan Mm hmm.   Mara Junot Um, and fortunately a lot of the things that I've done have actually been prerecorded, like I've been the opening announcer 2…3?  2 years in a row, for sure, for NBC New Year's Eve.   Randall Ryan Mm hmm.   Mara Junot And that I'm able to record in L.A.  You know, a few days before the event.   And I'm literally sitting on my couch in L.A. watching myself…   Randall Ryan Right.   Mara Junot …”live announce” from New York.   Randall Ryan I wonder what I'm going to say next!   Mara Junot Right! (laughs)  So it's a lot easier…   Brian Talbot Hey, 20 bucks says I say this!   Mara Junot Right!   Randall Ryan (laughs)   Brian Talbot (laughs)   Mara Junot And in fact,  just a few weeks ago I got to be the announcer voice for the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Awards, the Gladd Awards, the 32nd annual. And again, got to do that from my home studio and we recorded that I think a week before the event. So yeah, fortunately most of my quote unquote live events have not technically been live, which works out great for somebody like me who needs a little prep time.   Brian Talbot Right?   Randall Ryan I just thought of a great party trick: invite a bunch of people over to watch an award show..   Mara Junot Right?  (laughs)   Randall Ryan …and just when you're getting ready to say, excuse me, I've got to go to my booth and just go wander in there…   Mara Junot (laughing)   Randall Ryan  …and say “No, no, if anybody's in there watching me, I can't do this.”  And just take it like it's live.   Mara Junot That is brilliant! That’s brilliant!   Brian Talbot (laughs)   Mara Junot I'm so going to do that for the next one. (laughs)   Brian Talbot Either that or just sit on the couch and watch people, and let them hear the voice and go, “wow, that that sounds like you!” Really?    Randall Ryan (laughs)   Mara Junot Somebody's gotta die!  (laughs) Who is that?    Brian Talbot That's interesting.  Really?  You think that sounds like me? No, that doesn't sound like me.   Randall Ryan That would be another great angle to do it.   Mara Junot (laughing) Oh, I like yours, Randy.   Brian Talbot Live announcer parties.   Mara Junot That’s hysterical.   Randall Ryan No, no, but you can't come in and watch me.  I will completely freak out if anybody's watching.   Mara Junot Right!  (laughs!)  And then I just walk out with a whiskey.   Randall Ryan Yeah, some popcorn or something in there.   Brian Talbot Yeah, and just keep getting more and more sloshed through the night.   Mara Junot (laughing) Right?   Brian Talbot So that by the end, you’re “(drunk) I gotta do one more of these,” and you walk away, you come back and like, “how in the hell did she do that?  She sounds so sober, but I know how hammered she is!  Oh, my God!”   Mara Junot (laughing) Exactly.  Oh, God.   Brian Talbot (laughs)   Mara Junot Genius.   Brian Talbot Kids don't try this at home,    Randall Ryan (laughs)   Mara Junot Do NOT try this at home. Oh, my gosh.   Brian Talbot This is a seasoned professional.   Mara Junot (giggles)   Brian Talbot Oh my God.   Randall Ryan You mentioned earlier that you are a musical person.   Mara Junot Oh yeah.   Randall Ryan This is a running theme that we have with a lot of people that have gotten into voice acting, that they have a musical background.  What is yours?   Mara Junot Well, I guess…I guess you could say I have some formal background.  I mean, I was in Band, you know, when I was younger in middle school and things like that.  I played the flute.  But I always had a really strong musical ear.  I wouldn't dare say I have perfect pitch, ‘cause I've met people who can just, the note comes out and they're like, that's a C sharp, you know.   Randall Ryan Right.   Mara Junot Whatever. Like, I can't do it like that, but I guess I'm more like a relative pitch person? Like..   Randall Ryan Mm hmm.   Mara Junot I can find my C and then, you know, work my way up in my head.  So I need a couple of seconds.  But,   Randall Ryan Mm hmm.   Mara Junot For the most part, I do find that if there is a song that I like, usually more often than not I hear it still in my head in the original key.   Randall Ryan Mm hmm.  Right.   Mara Junot Or maybe half a step off.  But I'm always very, very close.  So, my mom said I was always like that with music and stuff.  I mean, I learned that I could play keyboard by ear and I was like, I don't know, maybe 12, 13.  She was like, “yeah, you would hear a song and then you would be playing it back pretty quickly in like a couple of takes.”  She makes it sound a little more dramatic than I think it was. I don't think it was quite that good, but I absolutely can pick up on exactly   Brian Talbot Hey take it; she’s your mom, right?   Mara Junot Exactly.   Brian Talbot (laughs)   Mara Junot Your biggest fan, right?    Brian Talbot There you go, there you go.   Mara Junot But I don't want people to think like I'm some sort of (laughs)   Brian Talbot Prodigy.   Mara Junot Right!  I mean, uh…   Brian Talbot Mara Junot, musical prodigy.   Mara Junot (laughs) Exactly.   Brian Talbot Here she is.    Mara Junot It's just not that serious.   Brian Talbot Actually, though, that's got to be what helps you be able to voice match and do all those kinds of things.   Mara Junot Absolutely, no, I mean..   Brian Talbot ‘Cause it's all the tonal qualities and inflections and…   Mara Junot Yeah.     Brian Talbot Patterns and and everything else and that's all music.    Mara Junot I think this is kind of one of the unspoken things about voiceover, you know.  People will have tons of wonderful websites: how can I get into voiceover?  How can I be a better business person in voice over? how can I this, how can I that?  But what I really don't see a lot of people mention, and this is a controversial opinion, but I stand by it.  I don't believe that an ear can be taught. I've had some people say that it can, but I have yet to meet anyone in my life who was like, I had no musical ear whatsoever.   Randall Ryan Right.   Mara Junot Now I can, I haven't heard of that happening.  I think maybe if you have a decent ear, you can certainly strengthen it, but I don't believe that you can come from a place and you just don't have any musical sense, I don't think you're gonna get as far as you could in voiceover compared to somebody who has a strong musical ear. I just don't.  Because like you said, it is a form of music, whether you're talking about a demo and trying to keep people's attention and making sure that   Randall Ryan Yeo,   Mara Junot You know, every spot kind of flows a certain way, like a big song.  I kind of see demos, like a big, oh God, what sort of music that we have in the seventies with like the rock operas and stuff?   Randall Ryan Yeah, a rock opera.  Right.   Mara Junot Yeah, it's kind of like a rock opera, like you want to grab their attention right away with who you are and you want to keep them on that ride and with a lot of shifts.  You know, it's like a suite.  And that's all musical production.   Brian Talbot Sure.   Mara Junot And the same thing, whether you're doing a video game and trying to be some big orc.  Just for the sake of maintaining the character, for goodness sake,  If you can't hear in your ear that you're slipping out of character, or know how to get yourself back quickly because you don't have that music locked in your head in terms of their age, in terms of the pacing.  You know, if they're older, they're going to probably talk a little bit slower or have a certain cadence, especially if you're doing sort of soundalike work, where you're trying to mimic an existing character.   Randall Ryan Mm hmm.   Mara Junot You really need to have a sense of what is their rhythm?  You know, how do they tend to, what is their speech pattern like?  And, and then of course commercials and promo, it's nothing but timing. I mean, you better get that down in five seconds, 15 seconds, 30 seconds, 60 seconds.   Randall Ryan Right   Mara Junot And if somebody asks you “can you shave two seconds off?” you need to be able to have that skill in your head to know how to do that.   Randall Ryan Yep.   Mara Junot And that just is pretty intimidating for a lot of people.  I don't think people really, when they think about getting into this business, they're like, “oh, people tell me I have a great voice.” And people may even be great with computers, but then you have to take it to the next level and okay, now can you hear?  Because not only do we have to be mind readers and try to be interpreters of whatever the hell the writers wanted in the first place, we have to be able to keep it all straight in our head.   Randall Ryan Mm Hmm.   Mara Junot When, you know, somebody says, give me an ABC, that next set of ABCs, if you have to do a second set or a third set or fourth set or a twentieth set, which is going to happen inevitably in a session, you need to be able to remember all those other takes and figure out how to give the next one a fresh set of variety.   Brian Talbot Yeah.   Mara Junot And so many people just can't do that. God bless.  It's a challenge. So that's just something I like to put out there. Nobody wants to hear it.  Don't shoot the messenger, don't get mad at me. But I just really think, you know, it’s important.   Brian Talbot No, I couldn't agree more. Being musical is really important.  I mean, a little known fact about me.  I was part of the Bay City Rollers.   Mara Junot Yeah?   Brian Talbot S A T U R   Mara Junot (laughs)   Brian Talbot D A Y night!  I don't know if that brings back any memories…   Mara Junot (laughing) Oh, yeah.   Brian Talbot …but that was me. That was me so   Randall Ryan Well, except he was part of the Bay City, Michigan Rollers.    Mara Junot (laughs)   Randall Ryan So they didn't, they were a little more regional.   Brian Talbot We used to sing before the roller derby.   Randall Ryan Yes.   Brian Talbot S A T U.R. D.A Y night!   Mara Junot (laughing) Oh my God.   Randall Ryan Yeah, it was.  But you know, but in Bay City they were the 3rd most popular band there.  So,   Mara Junot Yeah!   Brian Talbot You know, we were like the Michael Stanley band in Cleveland.   Randall Ryan The Michael Stanley Band!  Right.  Well they were more popular, you know?  They were…   Mara Junot (laughs)   Brian Talbot Well in Cleveland they were.  They were but they weren't popular anywhere else.   Mara Junot (laughs)   Randall Ryan They were… no now come on now.  You were in Bay City and they knew who Michael Stanley was there. He had played…   Brian Talbot But they weren’t as popular as S A T U R…   Randall Ryan Oh, now that’s true.   Mara Junot (laughs)   Brian Talbot …D A Y Night!   Mara Junot (laughs)   Brian Talbot I can still, I can still go into Bay City Michigan and do that and people ask for my gosh, darn autograph.   Randall Ryan That’s very cool!   Brian Talbot I kid you not. I kid you know it's very cool.   Mara Junot That’s amazing.   Randall Ryan That is cool.   Brian Talbot Yeah. So…   Randall Ryan I like that.   Brian Talbot So well um so this has been really incredibly cool but um, I think we're gonna have to go because it is S.A.T.U.R.   Mara Junot (laughs) D A Y   Brian Talbot NIGHT!   Randall Ryan Hey, I do want to add one thing before we do that just because of what you did just say, Mara.   Brian Talbot Yeah.   Mara Junot Yeah.   Brian Talbot Sure.  Oh you're gonna bring it back serious again, aren't you Randall? Damn you. Damn you.   Randall Ryan You don't know what I'm gonna say.  So you don't know if I am.     Mara Junot (laughs)   Randall Ryan You are just making… you are making a supposition….   Mara Junot He just wanted a chance to damn you!   Randall Ryan You're projecting your self and your ideals…   Brian Talbot I know.  I am.  I am.   Randall Ryan …onto me yet again. I'm not sending you that audition to replace me.  I'm taking you out of that pool.  You’re not getting the audition to replace me.   Brian Talbot I have a perspective.   Mara Junot Uh oh.   Brian Talbot I am a talent with a perspective.   Randall Ryan (laughs)   Mara Junot (laughs)   Brian Talbot S.A.T.U.R.D.A.Y. Night!   Mara Junot Oh my God.   Brian Talbot (laughs) Oh my God. Okay I'm sorry. Go ahead Randall.  Please.   Randall Ryan (coughs) I digress.   Mara Junot (laughs)   Randall Ryan So you mentioned about the music thing and how people need to be able to understand,: can you shave those seconds off?    Mara Junot Right.   Randall Ryan Do you understand timing?  Nobody bats an eyelash at that.  I mean they may; they may say “I don't know if I can do that” but they accept that.  Yet…   Mara Junot Right.   Randall Ryan …what we talked about earlier with understanding mic technique…   Mara Junot Yeah.   Randall Ryan …what a preamp does and everything else.  Why is that actually any different?  It's all something above and beyond just opening your mouth and talking.   Mara Junot Exactly.   Randall Ryan It is part of the skill set.   Brian Talbot It's part of the job.    Randall Ryan Some people are better at one aspect of the skill set than another.  You don't have to be 100% great at all of it.  “I really am good with characters, I'm not good with accents.”  Okay.    Mara Junot Right.   Randall Ryan That's okay.  But you have to at least have some knowledge of accents, right?  Even if you say like well I can't really hold a British accent, or I'm not really good with regional accents.  But sometimes just to even really get into a character, you at least have to know how to manipulate that voice…   Mara Junot Right.   Randall Ryan …to be something other than just you.   Mara Junot Right.  And sustain it. Remember it.  And also sustain it because some people just slip in and out of character or they'll do another character. It's like no, you need to sustain that one character.   Brian Talbot That’s the trick.   Randall Ryan Yeah 30 seconds at a party does not mean you've got a great Irish accent.   Mara Junot Right. (laughs)   Brian Talbot Yeah.  You want to be really good at doing characters?  Go ahead, create a character and then stay in that character all day, and sing a song in the character voice without bringing your own voice into it.    Mara Junot That's the hardest thing.    Brian Talbot That's one of the hardest things to do.  Yeah.   Mara Junot The hardest thing for me, I've seen actors who can do it when they're like, I'm playing a character who's Impersonating another character.   Randall RyanOh, jeez.  Right.   Mara Junot You know, like Homer Simpson trying to do Spock, you know what I mean?   Brian Talbot Yeah. Yeah.   Mara Junot That blows my mind.  (laughs) I cannot!   Randall Ryan Yeah, that's a skill.   Brian Talbot  Yeah, for me, the more basic test is always, can your character sing?    Randall Ryan Mm hmm.   Mara Junot Yeah, totally.   Brian Talbot Can you make yourself sing as the character? Not as you.   Mara Junot That one’s tricky for me, too.  Yeah. I have to say. It is tricky.   Brian Talbot It’s hard!   Mara Junot It is hard.   Brian Talbot It is a lot of practice.  It's a lot of work.   Mara Junot It is.   Brian Talbot And it's a lot of focus.  And if you can get to that point, that's kind of where you need to be able to be if you're gonna do characters or whatever.   Randall Ryan Mm hmm.   Brian Talbot There's musicality in all of it.  And I think the musicality becomes even more and more important as we separate the people who work versus the people who say, I've got a good voice.    Mara Junot Yeah, right.  (laughs)   Randall Ryan Absolutely.   Mara Junot A good voice will only get you so far, but, you know, can you sustain a career?  That's gonna take a whole lot more.   Brian Talbot Exactly.   Randall Ryan Yep. Yep.   Brian Talbot We really appreciate the time you've given us.   Mara Junot Likewise.  Thank you guys.    Brian Talbot It's always fun talking with you.   Brian Talbot We could talk for hours and hours and hours, but we must be respectful.   Mara Junot Oh, I understand, I understand.  I agree.  This was such a blast.  So good to hear you guys’ voice.   Brian Talbot This has been really great.  So um, Randall? Randall Ryan BT.   Brian Talbot Mara?   Mara Junot Hey!   Brian Talbot Welcome to the club!    Mara Junot (laughs)   Brian Talbot Until next time.  Thanks!   Randall Ryan Take care!   Mara Junot Thanks!  Bye!   Randall RyanA Let's talk Voiceover is hosted by Brian Talbot: actor and all around creative guy.  And me: Randall Ryan, owner of HamsterBall Studios, delivering the world's best talent virtually anywhere. If you have comments, questions, ideas for other show topics you'd be interested in hearing, or you just want to let us know what you think, reach out by sending us an email to BT, for Brian Talbot, bt@letstalkvoiceover.com.  Check out our website at www.letstalkvoiceover.com, or find us on Itunes, Stitcher, Spotify, and you know, just about anywhere else you get podcasts.  Thank you for listening.  We'll talk again real soon.

Chuck Campbell has been a working voice actor for a very long time. If you are in the voice acting business, you need to understand what Chuck already knows. It’s a business, first and foremost. For more than two decades, Chuck has been in front of the camera and behind the mic, including thousands of tv and radio commercials, training and corporate videos for Fortune 500 companies, 55 audio books, and the film, “Ides of March” with George Clooney, Ryan Gosling and host of other great actors. Not bad for a guy who took a chance and walked away from a steady paycheck 20 something years ago to invest in himself. So how do you keep a voice acting business thriving while keeping a 4 handicap? I want to know. Let’s Talk Voiceover, Chuck Campbell.

Sometimes you're having so much fun that a podcast pops out. That is what happened when we talked with Misty Lee. Misty is an awesome voice actor who is also an awesome magician. Yup. Really. As a lifelong performer, Misty talks honestly about the privilege of being a voice actor. And with a track record of success that includes Ultimate Spider-Man, Grand Theft Auto V, The Last of Us, Star Wars Battlefront, Disney Infinity, and more, Misty helps to remind us all how wonderful and magical this business really is. Invest your time to listen to Episode 33 and you'll walk away with a smile and incredibly valuable advice that's hard to find anywhere. 

Ever wonder what it would be like to hear from the writer who brings the words for our voices? Hall Hood is a narrative designer who specializes in creating immersive player-driven stories. His credits include games published by Electronic Arts, Sony Entertainment Corporation, and Disney. He has created stories and characters for the Star Wars, Dragon Age, and Mass Effect franchises, and also written for mobile games and console titles like Ghost of Tsushima for Playstation. In addition to his work as a writer, Hall mentors aspiring narrative designers, consults with production partners for Eko.com’s interactive video series, and provides expert support on other projects in development. Plus, he's really funny! Check out the podcast. 

Mark Oliver is a voice acting badass who does what he does in film, animation, and videogames. From Wood Man in the Mega Man animated show to Batroc in the Marvel Video Comics to Miles Dredd in the Max Steel franchise, and roles in Dungeons and Dragons Online and Lord Of The Rings Online, Mark has a fascinating background as a professional musician, actor, and film director. He talks about being authentic, and the advantages you can find by engaging in life to find your motivations. Take a lesson from a voice of experience, and check out this episode with Mark Oliver! Brian Talbot: Have I offended you yet?   Mark Oliver: I don't think of myself as being... I'm not easily offended.   Randall Ryan: But, well if that's a goal, I mean, we can make that a goal.   Brian Talbot: (Laughing)   Mark Oliver: Then throw the gauntlet down before you gentlemen.   Brian Talbot: The gauntlet has been laid down. Yes, I will meet that goal. I absolutely freaking will. Ask anyone who's listened to more than three of these shows, they'll tell you.   THEME MUSIC   Brian Talbot: As the grandson of German film pioneer, David Oliver, you might say that Mark Oliver was born into the business. While not exactly true, the apple sure didn't fall far from the family tree. You see, Mark Oliver is a voice actor, known for his portrayal of the sinister Lord Garmadon in Lego's Ninjago. Vancouver-born and UK-raised, Mark has become a common sight around the animation world. From Wood Man in the MegaMan TV series to Batroc the Leaper in the Marvel Superhero Adventures to Monstrux in Nexo Knights, Mark is a signature badass, both on TV and in video games. Some of his narration work includes Smithsonian's Hell Below and National Geographic's Hitler's Last Stand. When he's not working in the studio as a voice actor, Mark spends his time working as an independent filmmaker, and his experimental short film, Elvis: Strung Out, received first prize at the International Festival of Oberhausen, Germany. And then to bring this all full circle, his latest film project is a feature-length documentary on the career of his grandfather, German silent film producer David Oliver. Lots of creativity going on here. So, Let’s Talk Voiceover, Mark Oliver.   Mark Oliver: Yes, let’s.   Brian Talbot: Thanks for being here. Thanks for spending a little time with us. How fun!  A lot of our guests and a lot of the people we talk to are voiceover through and through, and while that's a fabulous way to make a living, my gosh, how fun is being an independent filmmaker?   Mark Oliver: Well, it's all fun, and I see all of these things as being intimately connected. I mean I started as a film historian at school, and I guess that came as a consequence of being interested in my family's filmmaking legacy. So I really see, I really don’t see any division between any of these different areas of endeavor. Of course, I love voice acting. When I came back to Vancouver after living in New York City, someone said, "You love getting wasted at parties and doing all those crazy voices. Why don't you pursue that as living?”   Brian Talbot: (Laughing)   Mark Oliver: … and I said, "Well, forget it because it's obviously a closed shop. It's going to be like trying to get signed up by the Freemasons or something.” But…   Brian Talbot: There you go.   Mark Oliver: … I asked a few people, and they made a few suggestions. I made a demo just using my own gumption, trying to figure out, well, what would people want? Some versatility, some variety. And I find that voiceover is immensely rewarding. It's like getting paid to go in and do your own primal scream therapy or something. When you're an on-camera person, you never get given the variety of roles that voiceover will present to you. And indeed, there are no laws at all governing how big these characters can be, and they're usually much larger than life, and I find it very gratifying to be able to, um, engage all of my imagination in the rendering of these different characters.   Brian Talbot: Well, that is what makes it really fun. Because on camera, obviously, your physical attributes are the primary determination of what your character is or what kinds of characters you can be; unless the director's willing to stretch the traditional or the precast notions of what that character looks like. With voiceover, you truly can be anything, and that's the fun part of it all.   Mark Oliver: Well, it also, it's ironic because we live in the midst of this extreme age which is so visually dominated, but sound is still such a mysterious component and affects people subconsciously in a way that they can't even put their finger on. Or, as I say, sound is like the,  the thief that comes through the basement door of the imagination and affects people in an extremely provocative fashion. So I'd like to think of this endeavor of voiceover as being a revenge against this era that is determined 98% of the time by visuals. I mean, my God, if you could divorce the voice of Kim Kardashian from the image of Kim Kardashian, and just think, my God, who could this person be listening to this vocal fry? …   Brian Talbot: (Laughing)   Mark Oliver: …like what does that tell me about this, this person? So I think about it a lot, and I have the luxury of being able to disappear into these different mediums. And I like to think that it gives me a fresh perspective when I return to the voiceover studio and attack this, that, or the other role. So you're correct.   Randall Ryan: So when they told you that you could do voiceover but you could not continue to get wasted to do it, how close was that to a deal breaker?   Brian Talbot: (Laughing)   Mark Oliver: You know you have to do these things carefully by stages…   Randall Ryan: (Laughing)   Brain Talbot: (Laughing)   Mark Oliver: …so it took about six months. (Laughing) No, I thought it was fine. I mean I should clarify that I come from a family where language is really deployed by most of the people in it to make a living. I mean my father was a criminal lawyer of renown and became a judge of the Canadian Supreme Court and was really one of these kind of Perry Mason figures who very entertainingly was able to sway juries because of his command of the language. It was always a huge, huge thing, not even what you said so much as the musicality or cadence with which we were able to try and convey this, that, or the other point to win an argument.   Randall Ryan: Right sure…   Mark Oliver: So, so I think that was my jumping off point. I wasn't somebody who was a trained actor, was frustrated with an on-camera career and then thought, "Oh, I'll investigate voiceover." It's completely satisfying,  without having to think about anything else. So I think I might have had a bit of an advantage, as I say, coming from this background where people could so deftly manipulate the English language to convey a point, win an argument, that sort of thing.   Randall Ryan: Well, sure, if you grew up around that, I'm not an actor, but I had the same thing with my family where I grew up around all these people who, ultimately when they got older, they were salesman and politicians. My father ended up being a lawyer as well. That side of the family would get together, and they were really big on trading insults and arguments and it was all very happy.   Brian Talbot: So it was like an adult sitcom-   Randall Ryan: It was like an adult sitcom.   Brian Talbot: (Laughing)   Randall Ryan: (Laughing)   Brian Talbot: .. who were the Simpsons before The Simpsons.   Randall Ryan: You had to learn how to speak and protect yourself or else you were just going to get run over.   Brian Talbot: So what was the plan before that, Mark?   Mark Oliver: Before all that?  I mean I was a, you know, scrappy kid who cut my teeth in the punk rock scene here in Vancouver and was in a number of bands.  And…   Brian Talbot: Well, that explains the drunkenness.   Brian Talbot: (Laughing)   Mark Oliver: That partially, partially explains it. And we'd had the good fortune of being selected by The Clash to open up for them on their Combat Rock tour, so we did a couple of shows opening up for The Clash. And you know once you get in front of 8,000 to 10,000 personal audiences, you're not going to go back to anything else. So I took care of everything here, wrapped up business, and you know moved to New York City. I guess I wanted to be eyewitness to what was going on in the world of hip hop in Manhattan. So I got to New York City around the summer of '84, I guess it was, and got into an R&B band based in Philadelphia, of all things, which was really cool because that was its own kind of university going from like the punk rock world of like, "Yeah, man, just wing it," to "No, man, you're going to like stay and you're going to rehearse these harmony vocals…   Brian Talbot: Sure..   Mark Oliver: … till four o'clock in the morning or however long it takes to nail this shit.”…   Randall Ryan: Yep.   Mark Oliver: So you know I met all sorts of people in the music world in New York City and Philadelphia…   Randall Ryan: Yeah.   Mark Oliver: …you know  I'd be walking down the street and someone would introduce me to a Delfonic or a Stylistic or something like that. And I loved that. I also loved the way that people were using language. It was so romantic and so expressive. So it's not like I,  I had to sort of stay close to whatever influences I picked up from my family. I realized I loved everything about language and the musicality of it. So,  I did okay and had some gigs doing backing vocals on people's records and stuff like that. But it was a tricky time to be in New York City through the '80s. It was a pretty hard-scrabble existence. Various things happened that meant I just couldn't live in New York City anymore.   Brian Talbot: Sure.   Mark Oliver: I came back to Vancouver around '97, which is when the drunken voices at parties started to really become...   Randall Ryan: (Laughing)   Brian Talbot: (Laughing)   Mark Oliver: …“I have to focus on these drunken voices (laughing) if people are going to take me seriously." And I attended a seminar as part of the Vancouver International Film Festival where people were demonstrating how to do these voices for animation. And there was a sort of a Q&A, and I looked at what people were doing. I thought, "Well, this doesn't seem too exotic. It's not too much of a stretch from being wasted at parties and doing this stuff for free." So I thought, "Well, why not?" I wasn't intimidated by studios…   Brian Talbot: (Laughing)   Mark Oliver: … because you know I'd cut tons of demos and tons of records already, and you know was comfortable with going off, just leaving.   Brian Talbot: Sure.   Mark Oliver: So it didn't seem like too much of a stretch. When I showed up to my first session, 90% of the people in the room turned around and said, "Well, who the fuck are you?”   Brian Talbot: (Laughing)   Randall Ryan: (Laughing)   Mark Oliver: (Laughing) …Because I just sort of arrived.   Brian Talbot: So it was a welcoming crowd. That's very nice.   Mark Oliver: Yes, such a welcoming embrace. Because I was there doing this principal character, I'm sure everybody in that room would've thrown their hats into the ring to get that role, but here was this total stranger being a king of a planet in outer space. And um I'd like to think that I equated myself with aplomb in that environment, but I also had wonderful people to observe and study from, so I was able to learn a tremendous amount from just the very talented people who were working around me.  They're still my colleagues to this day. You know since that time, I realized, oh my God, I have to take this thing seriously. It's not a party trick anymore…   Brian Talbot: Right…   Mark Oliver: … This could be a real thing. I looked at my first check and I thought, "There's got to be some mistake in accounting.” They couldn’t possibly…   Brian Talbot: (Laughing)   Randall Ryan: (Laughing)   Mark Oliver: ….they couldn't possibly pay this amount of money for what we did. We were just goofing around.   Brian Talbot: For what I did? Are you kidding me?   Mark Oliver: We were just goofing around. And people assured me like "No, that's pretty much par for the course." And since then I had to really kind of conduct forensic research into the kind of voices that we use on a regular basis and certainly many other voices that, if they didn't already have a presence in animation, could quite possibly sometime in the near future. This was really before people had fast internet so that meant like…   Brian Talbot: Sure   Mark Oliver: … going to the libraries and studying regional voices and dialects and accents. And I realized I was just already interested in that…   Brian Talbot: Yeah   Mark Oliver: … I loved it. I realized I'd found my métier. So you brought up a really good point about when people ask you like, “Yeah, you know think about playing that game, that voiceover game.”   Brian Talbot: How do you get into it? You become a student of it. That's the best advice I can give them is become a student of voiceover. So if you're going to play golf, then become a student of golf, understand everything about it. You want to be an actor, go become a student of acting. Figure out everything about it. You know all the same actors are in the Scorsese films. All the same cast members go from one Coppola film to the next Coppola film. So all these guys get their troops of people, it's like small theater troops, and they work with them because they know how to work together, and that becomes incredibly, incredibly valuable. That was something that I started doing when I started acting, and especially doing indie films and stuff like that. I found three or four core groups of people of writer/director/videographer teams that I could work with from project to project to project. That was just simply a result of becoming a student of what it is that you're trying to accomplish. And that's exactly what you were doing at that point in time.   Mark Oliver: Yeah. I wasn't rolling my eyes contemplating all of the homework. I just kept returning back to the thought, "Oh my God, the English language is fascinating.”   Brian Talbot: Isn't it though?   Mark Oliver: It fascinates me. It fascinates me. I’ve been, I was very lucky, when I was in New York City, I had any amount of friends from the South who'd say, "Well, you should come down, come down  to Tennessee for a week." And I would go down to Sewanee or be around Chattanooga and just to collar people on the street in a town or whatever. You'd be like, "Do you mind repeating what you just said?”… Brian Talbot: (Laughing)   Mark Oliver: … Not because I couldn't understand it the first time around, but it was just so beautifully delivered in such a lazy cadence. I just thought, "Wow, the United States is amazing. It's just a universe of voices." I'd think to myself, this is long before I got involved in voiceover, and I thought, "I'm going to file that away for future reference." I don't know why. And lo and behold, the opportunities arise where you can deploy that knowledge.  When people ask me what to study, it's never been easier because you have YouTube, you have Vimeo.   Brian Talbot: Sure.   Mark Oliver: …and I never really,  I don't really like to watch movies. I mean, I will, for references and stuff like that. But I find it to be a bit of a cheat. And if you wanted to craft something unique or something that belonged to you, then I'd rather be on the streets of Austin or whatever talking to people and not listen to Tommy Lee Jones.   Brian Talbot: Matthew McConaughey trying to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.   Mark Oliver: Yeah, yeah,  that sort of thing. Side note, my dad, during the war, he worked for British Intelligence where he worked in a branch of MI5. And he spoke five languages fluently.   Randall Ryan: Oh, my.   Mark Oliver: He would be charged with the responsibility of apprehending SS or Gestapo men who are on the run with assumed Wehrmacht identities and have to spirit them through the different sectors of Berlin, French-held Berlin, Russian-held Berlin, etc., etc., to get them back to British-controlled Berlin. So that meant that he would have to slip in and out of different voices and accents and languages to do that. And so I was very lucky to have somebody like my father. He regarded all of this pursuit as, how believable do you want to be? You are being parachuted 10 miles behind enemy lines, and you must be able to pass unnoticed by the local populace…   Randall Ryan: Yeah.   Mark Oliver: …So I take all that sort of stuff very, very seriously. So I don't know whether people, when they listen to cartoons, for example, consider that I and many of my other colleagues approach all of this kind of forensic research with tremendous seriousness just to be able to give you a really compelling talking tomato, for example.   Randall Ryan: Right.   Mark Oliver: (Laughing)   Brian Talbot: Well, I think that's a really important point. The other thing that people do is, "I do a bunch of funny voices. I want to get in voiceover. I can do George Bush, 'Not going to do it.'" Well, no, that's Dana Carvey's impersonation of George Bush…   Brian Oliver: Yeah.   Brian Talbot: …So you're not doing George Bush. You're doing Dana Carvey doing George Bush. Now, if you had your original spin on it, and it was really, really good...   Randall Ryan: Right   Brian Talbot: ..and oh, by the way, most people don't need impressions of other people. They need their own original characters. You know I was listening to someone not too long ago, and they're like, "Oh, I've got this voice, and it's this alien character, and so I'm going to do Marvin the Martian." No, no. That's someone else's character. That's not your original take on what it is.   Randall Ryan: Right   Brian Talbot:  That becomes so important in being able to not only book work, but be authentic and be convincing and really make that character yours.   Randall Ryan: Well, and that's one of the things that concerns me about some of the things that I see with internet casting and with people thinking that they can do this on their own is that type of lack of creative thinking. I have this stereotype in my head, and so that's what I'm looking for, and that's how I'm going to direct, or that's what I'm going to ask the actor to do without allowing that actor... Especially, I'll say this about Mark, you have done some of the best villains for me, period. Because they're not just villains. They're complex and textured.   Brian Talbot: Not just badass, but scary badass.   Randall Ryan: Exactly,…   Brian Talbot: Yeah yeah   Randall Ryan …just that psychological. Even if the script isn't really totally written that way, just that ability to dig in and get that. That's coming from you. That's not coming from me. It's not even coming from the writer necessarily. It's coming from allowing you to bring that piece to yourself. That's one of the things that really worries me with some of the trends that I'm seeing once you take out those people that understand what acting is. And I'm saying more on this side of the glass than on your side of the glass.   Mark Oliver: Well, first of all, thank you for the kind and completely misplaced compliment.   Randall Ryan: Yeah, right.   Brian Talbot: (Laughing)   Mark Oliver: No, no. Well, now I know what kind of estimation I have to live up to next time, so the stakes are raised. Thank you.   Brian Talbot: You just raised the bar. I hate that.   Mark Oliver: You raise the bar. But it's true what you say. Because I talk to students and they feel safer choosing to be a facsimile of George Clooney or a facsimile of this person and the other person because they confuse that with a degree of professionalism and that these people, because they are famous actors, have a kind of a currency and value. Therefore, I, by extension, must as closely as possible approximate their voices. I say, no, because then you're never going to stand out of the crowd. As an actor, I really don't like being confronted with sort of sound alike projects.   Brian Talbot: Oh, I hate those.   Randall Ryan: Right.   Brian Talbot: Yeah, those are the most annoying things. My favorite answer, and I've yet to use it, but one of these days I will: "Yeah, we're looking for a Sam Elliott." "Well, you know you can call up Sam's agent and he'll put you in touch, and you can book Sam. If you're really looking for Sam Elliott, then he's available. He's alive. He's still working. You know go get Sam Elliott.”   Mark Oliver: (Laughing)   Mark Oliver: Well, it could be laziness on the part of the casting person or the producer. I really don't know. Or…   Brian Talbot: Yeah   Mark Oliver: …that people just don't have adjectives at their fingertips to properly describe the characteristics that they're looking for.   Randall Ryan: I think you've hit the nail on the head with that. They don't. I've sat in on other people's sessions, or I've been hired to do it, but they really don't want me to direct. So I'm listening to some of these people who don't do this, and I'm listening to these people that don't have reps, and they also don't have the imagination to do it. They don't know how to tell somebody what they're looking for, and it is exactly that. They don't have the adjectives. They don't have the stories. They can't get down to the musicality and to the kernel of what it is they're looking for. All they can do is shortcut it to “Um, yeah we're looking for something that sounds like Morgan Freeman. We're looking for something that sounds like..." fill in the blank because that's all that they can imagine. That's where you get the stereotypical read. "Well, we're looking for a villain, so [inaudible 00:20:27]. Like, "Ah, no.”   Brian Talbot: (Laughing) I like that villain. That was an awesome villain. That was just-   Mark Oliver: I worked on a religious-themed project.   Brian Talbot (Laughing)   Mark Oliver: Within this, within the stories, there's the character of Satan that they were trying to cast. I thought, "Well, this'll be fun. I can really sink my teeth into this…   Randall Ryan: Umm hmm   Mark Oliver: …challenge”, so I showed up for the casting, and I felt I was prepared. They said, "Mark, whenever you're ready, go." And so I started, and I didn't get past the second sentence before the casting person stopped me and said, “Um what's your name?" "Mark. Mark Oliver." "Mark?" "Yeah." "I don't know whether you got the memo, but um Satan in this story is the bad guy.”  And…   Brian Talbot: (Laughing)   Mark Oliver: he said it like a bad guy, "But the way it's coming out, the way you're doing him is, well, frankly, he's kind of sexy. Did we tell you that he was the bad guy?" I said, "Interesting observation. Well, I'm just going with the whole thought that Satan is a very seductive, attractive character.   Brian Talbot: Thank you.   Mark Oliver: Because he is so attractive, he will bend people to his will and get people to do a lot of things that they normally would feel very uncomfortable doing. Do you see where I'm going?" They're like, "Yeah. Did we say that he was the bad guy?”   Randall Ryan: (Laughing)   Brian Talbot: (Laughing)   Mark Oliver: I know and at the end of the day, they went with, [inaudible 00:22:00].   Brian Talbot: Right, of course.   Randall Ryan: Oh, man.   Mark Oliver: ... which is a very two dimensional-   Brian Talbot: I was going to say, can we strip all the depth out of it?   Randall Ryan: Have you seen Good Omens? Now, I know it's based on a book, but David Tennant?   Mark Oliver: Yeah.   Randall Ryan: That's brilliant because the lines are blurred, and the people are not two dimensional.   Mark Oliver: Well, of course. I mean, you can go back to Milton's Paradise Lost, and the character of Satan is extremely attractive…   Randall Ryan: And complicated.   Mark Oliver: .. and complicated, which makes him far more provocative. So you think about what the struggle of good against evil really means as opposed to just being presented with a kind of cardboard cutout. It's a fascinating industry, and it's changing all the time. My God, I'm dazzled by the new types of stories that can be brought to the screen. I guess I'm waiting for the paradigm shift in storytelling as we experience it through episodic drama to make itself felt in the world of animation. I wonder if that's too much of a stretch. What do you think, guys?   Randall Ryan: Hmm.   Brian Talbot: I think we're well on our way. With all the adult animation that's out there, between the cartoon fun stuff, Simpsons and Family Guy and all that kind of pushing a comedic edge, and then of course all the manga and Japanese animation and then you have the animation networks or the comedy networks that are really heavy into the adult animation stories, I think that there is so much room for it. I think we're also much more willing to accept animation in place of live action to be able to enjoy storytelling, and I think the viewers are much more willing to accept that nowadays.   Randall Ryan: Well, the lines are definitely blurred. I mean…   Brian Talbot: Yeah yeah.   Randall Ryan: …you now have all kinds of things where actors obviously are in there, but sometimes it's even the digital representation of the actor. It's a very short period of time before your mind just accepts it. You stop looking at what's CG, what's real. It's just all blends and it's all seamless. Then suddenly the panther is really a character.   Brian Talbot: Yeah.  What are you seeing, Mark? I mean you're in the middle of it. Are you seeing scripts and stories change?   Mark Oliver: Well, I think that, to be perfectly honest with you gentlemen, I see a degree of trepidation on the parts of producers because it's becoming increasingly difficult to read the tea leaves of popular culture and where it's going. Are we going to see more and more shows that kind of target a niche audience? It's certainly difficult to find the kind of successes that have a universal appeal. For example, I don't know whether we could ever enjoy the success of something like Star Wars. Now we have lots of legacies, spinoffs of something like Star Wars. But within the animation world, I'm always pushing for new types of stories that can be brought to the screen. We talk all the time, my colleagues within the voice world, about getting behind original content. But, you know,  I can't hold it against somebody if they just want to goof off on their Sea-Doo or whatever all weekend long. They can do that. I'm always saying, "Let's get behind this idea, or let's get behind this idea and produce our own original content and see where it goes.”   Brian Talbot: Well, you know, I think there's more and more people who are in voice acting that are interested in doing that. I'm starting to see radio plays or radio theater popping up as episodic or a serial podcast.   Randall Ryan: Apparently the radio drama thing is a huge thing in the UK.   Mark Oliver: I think it's particularly understandable in view of the fact that I think people just have overall screen fatigue. I mean I know I do. I'd like the idea that one could have the luxury of walking around and just listening to a drama. Interesting, you had touched on the career of my silent film producer grandfather. He was constantly approached by inventors to get behind this, that, or the other. My father was present one afternoon when some technicians in white lab coats wheeled a huge apparatus under white sheets into the office of my grandfather in Berlin. They pulled off the cover and plugged in cables and turned knobs. So my father got to see a very early demonstration of Fernsehen or television.   Brian Talbot: Oh my gosh.   Mark Oliver: They were trying to solicit my grandfather for investment funds. He watched this demonstration. At the end of it, he said, "Gentlemen, you have a most fascinating device. But I'm afraid, I don't know whether I can be of any help, because you see, I don't think people will have the attention span for something like this. People like…   Brian Talbot: (Laughing)   MarkOliver: …people like the escapism of going to the cinema. When they're at home, they have the radio, and they can perform any amount of household chores. But to ask somebody to be held captive by this thing for more than five minutes, I think it's too much to ask of the average man or woman. So I'm going to have to pass I'm afraid.”   Brian Talbot: Oh my gosh.   Randall Ryan: He turned the Beatles down too didn't he?   Mark Oliver: He turned the Beatles down. He turned the Beatles down.   Brian Talbot: Another show that did come to mind when we were talking about, can you just create an episodic that works with animation? The TV show Archer, I think, is brilliant. It's some of the best written stuff, and the characters on Archer are all just regular people.   Mark Oliver: Yeah, it's true. I love Archer.   Brian Talbot: They do have a lot of resemblance in the characters, and so they really do capture different aspects of the voice actors and put them into the characters. Then they have the scope to be able to make those characters broader and wider and much different than what a live action or in-person filming of that show would end up looking like. So I think there's room for it.   Mark Oliver: You know I've tried to float any amount of projects, well, three, within the last year which were all going to be period dramas. You have to go like, "Oh, but there's another damn period project." So you think, "What are the logistics of that? Where we have to go? We'd have to go to Budapest to do that." But I would love to be able to take any one of those stories and just go, fine, this is going be rendered within the world of animation, and none of that is going to be a concern. We'll be able to take all kinds of liberties, etc., etc. I wonder whether people would accept dramatic stories that didn't depend on any kind of sort of slapstick or comedy from beneath the guise of animation. You can hide so many different types of stories that perhaps people might have been somewhat reluctant to hear if they were rendered on camera and so on. So I look to the future and would love to get behind the development of this, that, or the other thing. I'd like to think that the entire industry was going to start embracing a whole slate of projects that were daring.  It’s disappointing to see the same kind of story constantly reiterated. I mean I know that this is a business, and there's a bottom line that one has to pay attention to.  But…   Brian Talbot: Sure   Mark Oliver: …appetites are constantly evolving. One only has to look at what happens within the world of episodic drama, and you realize, my God, those stories could never have been brought to the screen 15 years ago.   Brian Talbot: I think there's room for evolution on it. One of the things that's really neat is that, because of technology, we're starting to see some convergence, right, across mediums. I saw a documentary, it was about the University of Texas mass murder that took place back in 1960... what was it, '66, something like that.   Randall Ryan: You're not talking about the tower shooting.   Mark Oliver: [inaudible 00:29:58].   Brian Talbot: Yeah, the tower shooting. The way they did the documentary was amazing because they actually had police radio audio. Then they took all the characters... The whole thing was animated.   Mark Oliver: What?   Brian Talbot: It was a documentary-   Randall Ryan: Wow.   Brian Talbot: ... that was animated. They took the characters and they cast them. So they had the different people talking about the experience in hindsight, and then actually being able to add voice to some of the cutaway live action scenes of what was going on at the moment. Then they were able to incorporate some of the original news broadcasts and police radio calls and stuff like that. What a fascinating way to tell a story through a documentary.   Mark Oliver: Another shooter in the high tower in the University of Texas.   Brian Talbot: There you go. So I think there is room for that kind of stuff. We'll see. So Mark, how much influence did your grandfather have on you growing up? Did you get a chance to spend a lot of time with him?   Mark Oliver: Oh, no. Well, he passed away in 1947. But I know him from a fragment of silent film from 1916 where he makes an on-camera appearance. That's the only evidence of him moving through this bit of footage. I know him through…   Brian Talbot: Wow.   Mark Oliver: ... letters and business correspondence…   Randall Ryan: Sure.   Mark Oliver: … and many, many photographs and through the recollections of people who knew him and worked with him. So his presence sort of loomed large over the house. I'm turning my head now, and I'm surrounded by all of the material possessions that my grandparents had in Berlin, huge pieces of furniture and drawings and paintings. It's as if this place here on the west coast of Canada had just been a room picked up and moved across the continents to somehow come to rest here, so…   Randall Ryan: How cool.   Mark Oliver: ...surrounded by all of this. Of course, because I didn't know him personally, I'm always sort of going to try and imagine what he was like as an individual. It's sort of like Citizen Kane where the cub reporters are sent out with the stipulation, "Rosebud. Give me something about this Rosebud, Kane's last words.”   Brian Talbot: (Laughing) That’s the quest.   Mark Oliver: Yeah. I mean people go like, "Well, what a nerdy thing to do." The whole point of it is is that you and I and everybody who's been listening to this podcast have only ever known a world where there was cinema, where there were films. But people like my grandfather, there was a very small group of individuals who were going to prove the commercial viability of film. Because you have to remember that the biggest competition for movies when they first arrived on the scene, and by this, I mean,  we're going back to the years 1903, 1905, your biggest competition would've been traveling stage troops where they would mount like a live X-ray demonstration in the theater. They'd set up an X-ray device and call this, that, or the other member of the audience onto the stage, and people would clap and shout and scream when they saw that person from behind this big pain of glass and you would be seeing an X-ray image of them. God knows how many [inaudible 00:33:27] rays those poor people were exposed to.   Brian Talbot: (Laughing)   Randall Ryan: That's the first thing I think of, "And we create cancer.”   Brian Talbot: (Laughing)   Mark Oliver: That is it. But that was the biggest competition for, that was the biggest competition for film. There was no precedent for it. I mean how could you make money from this endeavor? There was no film language. What kind of stories were you supposed to use this medium to tell? So for me, what's interesting is that these people, these pioneers are really rather like, serve in the same position that people who are at the cutting front of VR technology are at now because we're kind of at a tipping point and will be, I guess, over the next few years when everything will change. I suppose we've all been waiting for the advent of VR in homes across the world, and people will look at the two dimensional screen as this fossil.   Brian Talbot: A relic of the past. Yeah.   Mark Oliver: Really when I try to bring my imagination to bear and think of the very, very early days of cinema and the role that people like my grandfather would've played in its development, I find that fascinating. It's kind of like alchemy. The people that saw it in their mind's eye, they could go home and grind a lens at nighttime and show up to the studio and see what that did.  You know all these kind of strange experiments with lighting and different film stocks and the kind of performances that you could bring to the screen. People suddenly realized, "Oh my God, it's not like the theater. We can really dial back all this physical language, and it just can become very small and intimate." So these are many factors that have led me to pursue this as research and also as a kind of story of one man's rise and fall and how that person's life could actually be a mirror of cinema history itself.   Randall Ryan: I'm still waiting for my thousand shares of Sankyo Quadraphonic to pay off.   Mark Oliver: (Laughing)   Brian Talbot: (Laughing)   Randall Ryan: Do you think that's going to [inaudible 00:35:32] anytime soon? Hey, Mark, I got a question for you.   Mark Oliver: Certainly.   Randall Ryan: You've lived in three of the biggest actor cities. You've lived in London. You've lived in New York. You've lived in Vancouver. What made you come back to and settle in Vancouver?   Mark Oliver: At a certain point I thought, "I suppose I really have to spend more time with my mother and father. They're getting older." And it was traumatic to be in New York City for reasons yet to be discovered.   Randall Ryan: (Laughing)   Brian Talbot: (Laughing)   Mark Oliver: There was no way you could live in the Manhattan of that period without maintaining a big brass front. I mean you just had to have a lot of nerve and be totally fearless.   Brian Talbot: Boy, do I understand. I lived there in the late '80s and left in '90 for exactly the same reason.   Mark Oliver: So I just realized, like, if I continue to be in this city, I am not going to be doing myself any favors because I just don't have the will to be as adept or a bullshitter as I once did.   Brian Talbot: Yeah I didn't like who I was becoming, because of the city, right. It was changing me as a person and not necessarily in a good way.   Mark Oliver: It's hard. You might have to make the occasional Faustian bargain with yourself, and I…   Brian Talbot: (Laughing)   Mark Oliver: …didn't want to do, I didn’t want to do that particularly. And the city was changing. It wasn't the New York that I'd arrived to. So having said all that, it came as a great kind of moral defeat to have to leave Manhattan because you hear the kind of inverse of Frank Sinatra in your mind: If you can make it there, you'll make it anywhere. So all I could hear was, "You didn't make it here so that you'll never make it anywhere.”(laughing)   Brian Talbot: (Laughing)   Mark Oliver: That’s all, that kept playing out in my mind again and again…   Randall Ryan: Sure. Ouch.   Mark Oliver: …It was hard to come to terms with that. But, you know, now I look back and I can laugh about it all because it really... you know what did I expect of myself? I don't know. I was a different person then, and I have different needs now.   Randall Ryan: Yep. Well, there's also that fame thing that we're all subject to. People think you've made it when you've worked on the big game.  Right?  Yet, the big game doesn't necessarily pay you more than that indie project, and it certainly doesn't pay you necessarily more than a long-term animation thing that maybe it's got an niche audience, but you keep coming back and you keep doing episodes, but somebody who's making a career doing the episodic stuff. So I think the New York thing also, like the LA thing, can have an element of that.   Brian Talbot: Well, take your choice. Do you want to be a famous person, or do you want to be a long-time working actor?   Randall Ryan: Right.   Brian Talbot: Right. There’s lots of things you can do to get famous,(laughing) and a lot of them aren't really good. Do you want that fame where, "Oh man, I was soldier   Mark Oliver: No!   Brian Talbot: …number 17 in this game?”   Mark Oliver: Can I tell you can I say this? I got to get this off my chest right now. I wanted I moved to New York City because I wanted to be cool, and I stayed in New York because I wanted to be cool. I only want do cool things. If I did one thing that was not so groovy, then I would feel ashamed. It's easy for me to say, I suppose. I feel bad for some actor friends of mine who just go, "But I got to work, man. I'm working." You go, "But this thing that you're doing is, it’s heinous." If we had a really operational union, like a real actor's union, then the heads of those unions would be able to call producers onto the carpet and say, "Gentlemen, we've studied the script for the project you have in mind and frankly, we feel it is beneath the dignity of our membership.”(laughing) That would be a real-   Brian Talbot: There goes most of the projects. There you go.   Randall Ryan: Yeah, that's it. There go most of the projects.   Mark Oliver: That's sort of what I feel. I mean, I guess I've had to cut corners here and there to somehow survive, but I really feel like those things can come back and haunt you. I look up to my heroes for setting an example to follow. There was going to be a future full of compromise in New York City, and that was a heartbreaker….   Brian Talbot: Yeah.   Mark Oliver: …Of course, now I laugh because I must have been a very, very naïve and extremely idealistic young man, too.   Brian Talbot: Yeah you know there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing…   Mark Oliver (Sigh)   Brian Talbot: …wrong with being idealistic and naïve and you know trying to get what you want.   Mark Oliver: Yeah.   Brian Talbot: There’s nothing wrong with turning down the bargain.   Mark Oliver: Oh, but it's so scary because like all the famous people I knew or the people who became really big stars were really just prepared to like completely sell out at the first…   Brian Talbot: Yeah, do anything.   Mark Oliver: ... opportunity. Now some of them are still around, and they're sort of accorded this legendary status now. I thought, "Oh, no. That person's heart wasn't in the right place back then, and it's not in the right place now. It's galling. It is galling.   Brian Talbot: Yeah.   MarkOliver: If any of you belong to MUBI, the European streaming platform, you can watch this little film that I directed which talks about all of these things, or I'd like to think that it covers a few of them. It is Elvis: Strung Out. That's kind of an examination of celebrity culture. But that was kind of a voiceover endeavor or wouldn't have come together had it not been from my experience doing ADR. Because I'd had this big file of Elvis dialogue talking about particular things, and I edited it down until I felt I kind of created a Haiku. Then I thought, "Well, this is deserving of its own video now." So I had to go out and try and find as much archival footage of Elvis in the same outfit…   Brian Talbot: Sure.   Mark Oliver: … for continuity's sake, and then keyed it in over the audio so it was like lip sync in reverse. But, I realized while I was doing this with my editor, he was saying, "But that doesn't really work, does it?" I go, "No, it does." Because I'd spent so much time trying to fit dialogue into an image on the screen, I thought, "Oh, actually, yeah. I guess I've been kind of training to do precisely this type of project for a very, very long time.”   Brian Talbot: Fabulous.   Mark Oliver: It's funny how even something like that came as a consequence of being a voice person. Who would've thunk it?  Just an aside, an aside.   Brian Talbot: (Laughing)   Brian Talbot: I think it's all about putting yourself in the right position and then just being open for the opportunity. What's the best piece of advice you can offer?   Mark Oliver: I think you gave an extremely good one, and we'll circle back to that because it stayed in my mind. That is, if you wish to become part of this community of voice people, the first thing that you must do is to become a student of voices, full stop. You just have to be fascinated by that. People have stopped me and said, "Yeah, it's all right for you to say," or whatever, because they feel like I'd found a loophole.     Brian Talbot: Like you didn't have to go through it…   Randall Ryan: (Laughing)   Brian Talbot: …You didn't have to put in the hard work. Right yeah.   Mark Oliver: It's like, well, you can make so much money, those union jobs down at the liquor store, you just got to know somebody or something like that.   Brian Talbot: Yeah, yeah.   Mark Oliver: I would have to say, I consider the community of voice acting, to be, it's a very, very pure pursuit. Everybody is very warm and welcoming to anybody else who enters that world. I think that people are so gifted. I'll go out on a limb and say I think it could, in many ways, be the purest form of acting there is in terms of being able to lift something off of a page and make it come alive, or at least that's what I will always try and do.   Randall Ryan: Well, I will say that I completely agree with you that, at least in my experience, the difference between the voice acting community and any other discipline of acting, is just exactly what you said, warm, friendly, inviting, helpful, let's all work on this together, let me help you if I can, which is completely different than, I would even say, not just other forms of acting, but most other creative disciplines. There's always this sense of competition that pervades. My first tribe are musicians, and I love my musician tribe. It's still what I self-identify as and yet, the level of competition and backstabbing, and "I'm better" and nitpicking. That’s what the voice acting community seems, for whatever reason, kind of lack that, and that's a very positive thing.   Brian Talbot: Yeah, it kind of transcends that. I'm going to go ahead and agree with you because, well, you said that my advice was some of the best advice you could give, so there we go.   Mark Oliver: (Laughing)   Randall Ryan: (Laughing)   Brian Talbot: Hey, it's been great to share this time with you and Randall.   Randall Ryan: BT.   Brian Talbot: Mark Oliver.   Mark Oliver: Hey, BT, it's been a pleasure.   Brian Talbot: Thank you so much for spending time with us.   Mark Oliver: Anytime.   Brian Talbot: Until next time.   Mark Oliver: Later.   Brian Talbot: Good times with Mark Oliver. What an interesting and talented guy. We could have talked all night. But, hey, who's got that kind of time? (Laughing) Let’s Talk Voiceover is hosted by Randy Ryan, owner of HamsterBall Studios, delivering the world's best talent virtually anywhere, and me, Brian Talbot, actor and all around creative dude. Reach out to us anytime by sending an email to bt@letstalkvoiceover.com or go to our website at www.letstalkvoiceover.com. That's www.letstalkvoiceover.com. Subscribe to us on iTunes, Stitcher, and, yeah, check us out on Facebook and Twitter, too. We might take a look. It'll be fun. It'll be a good time. Good times had by all. Thanks for listening to Let's Talk Voiceover. We'll talk again real soon.

Heather Dame is currently the VP of Atlas LA and heads up Atlas' west coast branch. Heather built Atlas' Animation department from the ground up, as well as had a close hand and partnership with other agents in developing the Los Angeles commercial, video game and promo/narration/trailer departments. She is passionate about developing talent and creating new business equally and enjoys the creative parts of "agent-ing" just as much as the problem solving and negotiating side. She believes in conducting business openly and honestly, and is one of the best in the business. Want to know what a top agent thinks? It's all here in Episode 30 of Let's Talk, with Heather Dame.  Brian Talbot: ... We've always been different. Randall Ryan: I find that's a good thing as a general rule. Brian Talbot: I don't know. I mean, who wouldn't want to be you? Randall Ryan: There are issues with being... Brian Talbot: Wow. Randall Ryan: I'm not even going to try to answer that. Brian Talbot: Talk about testing the friendship. Ouch. Oh, wow.   THEME MUSIC Brian Talbot: Heather Dame knows a good voice when she hears one, Heather heads up Atlas Talent’s west coast branch. Moving from New York to Los Angeles over a decade ago, she built the western empire full of some of the best voice actors anywhere. Heather built Atlas's animation department from the ground up, as well as having a close hand and partnership with other agents in developing the Los Angeles commercial video game, promo, narration, and trailer departments. She is as passionate about developing talent as she is about creating new business, from agenting to problem-solving to negotiating, Heather is open and honest, and she brings that approach to her business, that makes her the person every voice actor would love to have on their side. With so much to say and so little time to say it, Let's Talk Voiceover Heather Dame. Heather Dame: Hi guys. I don't think that I have ever had my bio narrated before. It's a very weird experience. Happy to be here. Brian Talbot: You're not the first. In fact, I've got a new side niche and it's called Bio Narration, and I'm trying to get represented for it.  So, uh…yeah. Heather Dame: Well, I would be better if you just gave me a pep talk every morning, I think. Brian Talbot: I can do that too. I can do that. I've been known to wash someone's dog for 20 bucks. It's a dog eat dog world. Heather Dame: Anyways, hi. Randall Ryan: So you've been in LA long enough now, because I still consider you a northeasterner. Heather Dame: Okay. Randall Ryan: ‘Cause, you and I met, if I would say to use the word met, literally like maybe a year after you came out to LA, and you were still going back to the Northeast to go camping and hiking and maybe you're still doing that. Heather Dame: I am. Randall Ryan: How do you consider yourself at this point? Heather Dame: I'm a west coast person now. I mean, I go back and forth still, but I've been living out here for 10 years now. It's kind of crazy. I've had to actually shift my language more recently, because I'm like, "You know, we're new out here." And people look at me like they don't even know we were never in Los Angeles. That we only had started this agency out here 10 years ago. They think we've always been here. So to me, it's interesting. I am now fully west coast. I'm married. I have four step kids. My life is very full and it is absolutely west coast, but I go back to visit my family in New Hampshire and Boston all the time. And I go back at least once a year to go visit all my people in New York, since I agented there first and I lived there for seven years before I came out here. But I am firmly planted out here. They like it when I'm out here and helping the office operate. So yeah, I'd say I've fully acclimated to the west coast state of mind. Randall Ryan: No, I was just going to say, did you actually open the LA office? Because, I thought that there was like a small presence here and you kind of came out to really not only build it up, but do the VO aspect of it. Heather Dame: No. So Atlas has been open since 2000 in New York.  The owners of the company, John and Lisa, when they opened Atlas, they did a lot of promos and commercials and radio imaging and all of that jazz out of New York and across the country. And actually one of the owners of the company, John Wasser, had been going back and forth for years before they moved me out here, just coming and staying in hotels, just like a Willy Loman of voiceover if you will, pitching a lot of trailer talent. So he really developed a lot of our trailer talent from the ground up, but we never had an actual presence out here in the other areas of voiceover or an office. And so, I was the first man on the ground out here in a Los Angeles office. John came back and forth and still does to this day, actually. But they asked me to basically build up the animation game, as well as help develop the commercial department in Los Angeles and help build the whole office from the ground up. It was just me and a part-time assistant in a small office space when we started and we've had four office expansions since, and now we have seven full-time employees out here and most of our company’s bicoastal. So it's grown over the course of time, but we did have that presence in promos and trailers in that world, but we did not have that presence yet in animation and games and commercials in Los Angeles.   Randall Ryan: Right. Brian Talbot: So how did you break the doors down to get into animation and games? I mean, those are some pretty sturdy doors. Heather Dame: It was a lot and we took it one day at a time. So I don't know if you guys are aware of Michael Leon Wooley, I like to call him like LA animation Talent Zero, for us. When I was still in New York, he really wanted to get into animation. He booked the Princess And The Frog and he asked me to set him up with meetings. And so, John and I just started cold-calling people asking them to take meetings with him, and that's kind of how it started. And people met him and they loved him and they started hiring him. And so, he was actually on the west coast before we were, interestingly enough. Heather Dame: And so, we just started calling people. John really helped me. I was a brand new agent. I had been doing promos in New York and I’ve been doing it for, you know, maybe eight months to a year, and I'd started succeeding and he turned around and he was like, "Build animation." I was like, "Wha…what?  You want me to do what?" Like, "Yeah, you should build an animation department." And so, he helped me and Lisa helped me and we just started calling people and setting up meetings and we introduced ourselves one person at a time.  And there was a lot of talent who came with us from the beginning. Hynden Walch came with us right away as well. Jim Cummings, Roger Rose…you know, there's a lot of people who started the agency with us in Los Angeles and really helped us build it brick by brick. That's why I think it's funny, I can't help but call us like the little engine that could, even though I get that's no longer how people view us.   Randall Ryan:Right.   Heather Dame: But I think that perspective helps on a daily basis, to keep doing your job and view it with fresh eyes and feel positive and continue to always be looking for “how do I continue to build” and not be jaded, which I think a lot of agents are. You know, it's a tough job. Randall Ryan: Yeah. It is. Heather Dame: It truly is like, it truly is. And I think a lot of people, until you walk in those shoes, you don't really understand how difficult of a job it is. You wear a lot of hats and a lot is expected of you, more than you could ever imagine is expected of you. I mean, honestly we just called people one at a time. Andrea Romano was one of the first meetings that I took, and very funnily she said to me something that shaped the way that I helped build Atlas and our roster out here was, she said to me, "I don't need you to have a hundred people on your roster. I need you to have one great person and they can book the job. I'd rather you send me one great person than 20 mediocre people who aren't ready and aren't right for the job." Randall Ryan: Oh my God, no kidding. Heather Dame: And it really…because, I was like, “I don't have people yet.” She said, "Who else do you represent?" She had met Michael Leon Wooley, was hiring him on Batman: The Brave And The Bold, loved him, and that was the moment she said, "Who else do you have?" And I sat in that meeting, and I wasn't sure what to say and I said, "No one yet."   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: And that was her response to me. And it changed the way that I viewed how we were going to operate and what worked and what didn't. And so I no longer felt like…I felt like it was okay, I'm going to sell the people that we have and develop the people that I find. And we're going to do it slowly and surely, and not too quickly, and make sure that we're doing it in a curated, thoughtful, organic way that it's not just about signing on everyone you can and throwing spaghetti against the wall.  It's going to be more methodical and slow and building. And so, I think that is why we've sustained and built the way we have over the course of time. Because, a lot of people, I think they think, just get as many clients as possible and throw spaghetti against the wall and see what happens.   Randall Ryan: Right.   Heather Dame: And then that creates a very different way of operating that I don’t think helps everybody succeed in the long term. Randall Ryan: No.   Heather Dame: We have the philosophy at Atlas, we have the reputation that it's hard to get signed with us.  And I think the reason for that is that when we bring someone on, everybody agrees.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: Both offices, New York and LA, all the agents, even if that agent isn't going to service that talent, that you still want to make sure that, when the right project comes up for them and for that talent, that they're on board, that they want to service and support that talent and be on board with booking them. And so, it makes it more difficult to get signed with us, but it also means we have a very curated list that is very well supported by multiple agents. And that's never really just one agent that the talent can rely on for their business. So they're more diversified across both coasts and across the full agency, if that makes sense. Randall Ryan: That makes a lot of sense. And the one thing that I've always really admired about you, and this is coming from a director's point of view: one of the things that has driven me nuts about a lot of agents and a lot of agencies, is you go to them and you say, and you have a very specific character description, "I need this." And the tendency of a lot of agencies is to say, "Oh, well, I need to send you.." I'm going to pick a number out of a hat.. "12 people, because you need to know that I have these people here." Brian Talbot: 12? You're being really generous for most agents. I got to tell you. Randall Ryan: Well, my point being that they may have three or four people that legitimately fit that character description, and yet they'll send a larger number. I don't know whether it's to show the talent that they're working for them, but it's almost like, did you read the character description? And that is the one thing that I've always really admired about you, two things: one, that I can come to you and say, "Heather, this is what I'm looking for." And that's what you send me. You don't send me like, “ehhh, here's someone maybe you should know about.”  And that you also have always been very generous with saying, "Keep me in the loop. But if you need to contact somebody to talk about a project or whatever, that's fine. Just keep me in the loop." Which I respect and do. Is that something that is more…is that your philosophy, is that an agency philosophy?  Who drove that? Heather Dame: Well, I think how you lead is how people gives them the chance to be more creative and find their own way with things, and have the room to grow and find their own talents, if you will. So I think that is specifically a style I have. However, I have to give credit to the owners of the company for giving me such autonomy and space to really grow as an agent and play to my strengths, that they gave me the opportunity to develop that way of operating, if that makes sense, because no one had done animation before at our agency, or games. And so, it is such a different skillset that I had to learn that market and had to learn the talent and learn the skillsets behind it.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: And that was something; I would go to classes, I would go to sessions. I did all sorts of things to figure it out, because I had learned the trade of promos when I first started and that was their trade. So they could teach me how to do that in promos and how to look at that from that perspective. But the piece that is from the agency is that, because the agency started out with such a heavy promotional department and that world, something that most people I don't think recognize about that area of the world, unless you work in it, is that is a highly pitched business. It's all relationship based. And those aren't opportunities that just... It's not like a promo producer has a spot that they're working on for one of their shows. And just the way an animation casting director or video game cast director will reach out to lots of people, because they need lots of good options from around town, from multiple agencies.  Promo producers tend to actually just want to reach out to one agent as long as they can fulfill their needs.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Heather Dame: And so that, business is very much solely based on relationships and the ability to book those jobs. So it is fully pitched. So you can't expect, you can't become an agent in promos and expect your phone to ring, it won't and the money certainly won't come in either, you have to go get those relationships, you have to go build them. And then when the projects come in, you have to book them and you have to continuously do a great job for that person, so that over the course of time, your hope is that 20 years in you have an exclusive relationship. And there's quite a few exclusive relationships in that world. So that's, a bit of, if you're talking about what comes from the company or that's a bit of what I think you're talking about where that stems from for me, is that viewpoint on agenting.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: I don't view it as I've got a roster, you should call me. Randall Ryan: Right.   Heather Dame: I view it as a very curated experience, that experience I bring to each buyer and each client over the course of time and the job I do for them.  Not only do I have to call them first and build that relationship, that's on me, not on them, but once I do that as well, then I also have to do a great job and curate lists and curate. Because, in the long term, the way I'm going to be able to...When we started out, we had a couple big name people, but for the most part, we developed a lot of our roster from the ground up…   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: …and to where they are today. And we have some really successful people we built from the ground up, in partnership with them. And how you do that, like how do I send you someone completely unknown, and you trust me that they're going to be able to hold their own in a session. Well, I show you that I can be trusted   Randall Ryan: Right.   Heather Dame: And that I have that ear. And so that's, a bit of my strategy, if you will, as an agent, now I'm giving you my agent secrets. Randall Ryan: Again, from my perspective, I massively appreciate that, because you're right. If I send you something and you send me somebody in there like, "Hey, this is somebody I think you should listen to." I know you're not blowing smoke up my skirt. Like, "No, actually I've looked at what you're looking for, I know something about this person, or I maybe know a lot about this person. I think they could do this." And whether they get booked or not, I can't even think of any time that you've sent me something like that and it's like, "Yeah, no, not that person." They've always been in that wheelhouse. And that's kind of the point, isn't it? Heather Dame: Yeah. I mean, it is the point. It should be the point. Randall Ryan: Yeah. It should be the point. Heather Dame: It should be the point. I think that's also where I have fun. I enjoy that process of it. The casting and the developing and learning the nuances and building those relationships with people and that's the part that I really love. Do I have to also be good at the negotiating part and the navigating part and all of that?  I know how to spin with the best of them, because I'm an agent, it's part of my job. I know how to do all of those sort of things, but I really like live in the casting space. That space of it is what makes this job come to life for me.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: And so, I enjoy it as well, so that's a piece of it that I feel like is something I can uniquely bring.  And a lot of times when I'm selling the agency I'm also selling my ear and my development style, and not just "Here's some people pick one." And I think that is a distinction that some people are really great at, and some people are not. And it is a distinction between different types of agenting, as well. Like I think it's more important in the game and animation world than it is in the commercial world, for instance, where it's a little bit more like a roulette game trying to win one of those jobs. And it’s not always the way that they audition, is it's not always something they... Like what you read on your commercial audition, is essentially usually what they're going to expect in the booth. And when you read for an animation or game audition, they're going to expect five other things from you in the booth when you get there. And so that's, the complicated way in which animation and games, since it casts remotely now, that's the difference it makes, is that the casting director has to figure out either they know you and they've worked with you in the booth before and that's what makes it easier to pass you forward, right?   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: I mean, in some senses, you get a new person, you listen to their demo or listen to their audition rather and you love it, but you don't know their name. My guess, is the first thing you do is ask, "Oh, which agency is that person with? Have they done anything? Who are they? Can I trust them in the booth?" Because, what you don't want to do as a casting director is put them through, have them hired and then have them walk in the door and not be able to perform what's expected of them, because what's on the MP3 is only the beginning of what's expected of them in the booth. Randall Ryan: Again, I can only speak from my own perspective. If somebody nails an audition, you can kind of tell when somebody's cobbled something together most of the time, at least with auditions that I send out, and there's that fine line that you have to do of, you want to give enough copy to be able to let the person stretch and do what it is that they do without being “you're going to be in the booth for an hour just doing an audition,” which I think is unconscionable from my perspective. But I almost always try to give enough copy or enough leeway or, "Please do this two or three different ways, if you think you can bring two or three different things to the table."  If somebody can do that, they're probably going to be just fine. The people who really are too green to be able to walk into a booth and do it, somewhere in that audition, I'm not going to say a hundred percent, because I've had those things happen, but high nineties, if you do the audition well, and if they turn something around, you can kind of tell, no, this person knows what they're doing.  Whether they’ve got 50 credits under their belt or zero kind of doesn't matter at that point.  They can do the gig. Heather Dame: Yes. If you're expecting them to only do that one voice and that one character.   Randall Ryan: Fair point.   Heather Dame: And for me at least, in animation I think it's probably a bigger deal than it is in games. And it comes up more in animation than it does in games, but in animation, they usually want you to cover three characters, at least two. And there's so much more nuance I think in long term, if you're playing a character over a full series and they're hiring you for five seasons of a character and you're meant to breathe life into it. So maybe the context difference is animation versus games, because I've definitely had people who audition really well who are not as good in the moment in the booth, and I've had people who don't audition as well who are amazing when they get in the room.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm. Heather Dame: So it's interesting, because from my perspective I see both of it. I think you kind of get the best of everybody, you know?  Like you're not being sent the people who aren't ready for you yet…   Randall Ryan: Right.   Heather Dame: … I think in a lot of circumstances.  But I have people that I have to work with that I really, like they have to. I would rather them audition less but come into our booth every week, because from home they're just not able to create what they can when they're in person with people. And it's interesting, so I know that they're more talented than their auditions. So that happens too on my end, is that there are people who are more talented than their auditions. And I have to try to eke that out of them, teach them the skill of auditioning and specifically from home, so that they can actually put forth what they can do on those MP3 files.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm. Heather Dame: It's an interesting world, because, I mean I'm glad that it's opened up, because that opened up an opportunity for us to develop people. And I don't think we would've been able to, if it were a closed group of people working in animation and games.  But it is an interesting shift in the industry in general of how it has really turned to be more from home in general, and how much of the audition process and booking process happens all remotely without anyone meeting each other.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm. Brian Talbot: So that's, a really interesting part of what we all go through, especially as an actor, not only is it the self-direction and figuring out how to self-direct from a home audition, but then most of the work, I mean, the story is always that all the animation and game work has to be done in LA.  How accurate, how inaccurate, what kind of recommendations do you have for voice actors on that? Heather Dame: So, Randy actually does a lot of his stuff from home studios. He's fine with that. And there are a couple people who do do that. And so, there's no hard and fast rule. Which is why I'll never say never, but from my experience, talking to many casting directors, as well as bookings and submitting people from out of town and I mean, we represent people across the entire country, as well as we have a full department in New York that are local New York people, as well as our local LA; it's kind of like a Venn diagram of people that do different things. The thing that I tend to tell people as the reality, is that you can book a couple of jobs in animation and games not living in Los Angeles, but if you want to build a full long-sustaining career, you have to be there. It's where the opportunities are. It's where the relationships are. Those moments are built in the booth with people.   Brian Talbot: Right.   Heather Dame: The relationships and the connections happen in person. And the majority of the jobs prefer people to be in person. And even in the context where someone's auditioning from out of town but would fly in, where they would fly in for the booking, that I've even seen over the course of time. Because, you have to remember, we started with no one in Los Angeles. We started with the New York office, and I had a bunch of Broadway people there. So what do you think I did? I used them.   Brian Talbot: Of course!   Heather Dame: That's the first thing I'm going to do is like, I'm going to make animation people out of these Broadway people. That's where Michael-Leon Wooley started.  They're amazing actors. We can teach them the skill set. Andrea Romano even came and taught a class for me in New York, which she hadn't done in years, when she heard I was looking to train them up. She's like, "I'll come, if you set it up and meet those people and help them." So that's how I started off doing it. So I've done that for many year.s and I've done it with some limited success here and there. But what I've discovered is that most jobs in animation, they're just unpredictable. It's very organic how things happen.  It may be that at four o'clock Nickelodeon is writing to me saying, "We have this audition for tomorrow. What are your ideas?” Or “We want to see this person, anyone else?"  And I just name the other person, and they get a time tomorrow and they gave us two times.  And so now, if you're in New York, what if you were the perfect person for that? They're not going to see you, and you dismiss that opportunity. Ultimately, people also like you would basically have to fly blindly no matter what. Meaning like, they may say on Monday “we need them on Wednesday,” and now you're booking a thousand-dollar plane ticket. Your cost of your travel is more than the session itself. And there are just a lot of jobs that look that way. And so, the reality is that if you really want to be in it, if you really want to build a career in it, you have to be where it is, and it's here. If, you want to book some jobs…   Brian Talbot: Yep.   Heather Dame:  …absolutely you can do that from afar. You have to find an agent who's willing to do that with you and willing to put you out in the places that it will work, but I haven't seen, and I've seen a lot of this.  Like I have to say, I have so much context for this conversation and I'm not going to talk about details of different talent, but I have so much context for this conversation. I've tried it every which way. And at the end of the day, I have just not seen someone build as full of a career as they could. I even have people who work quite a bit in animation out of Nickelodeon in New York, and still can't succeed. And there's a girl I know that if she came out to LA would be all over the place, everybody would be using her in town. She's so amazing.     Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: And remotely, she just doesn't build that career.  But she has other careers, and so she's living her best life. She's perfectly happy.   Randall Ryan: Right, right.   Brian Talbot: Right.   Heather Dame: We've had this discussion and I'm not disappointed either. She's living the life that she wants to live and doing the work that she wants to do, and I'm able to help her get animation while living in New York as well. And that's awesome. And we love her, and she's one of my favorite talents, and she's just such a kind, awesome human being. And she's working a ton as well in New York, but it's still not the same as it would be if she lived in LA.   Randall Ryan: Right.   Heather Dame: And that's just a reality. And I don't think that's going to change, because animation, the magic happens in the room a lot. It's a lot of improvisation and chemistry and moments that people are creating together.  I think, games often are a little bit more isolated in how they cast and how they book. I think that's the reason a lot of those have been more willing to do remote sessions and do things from New York or LA or book a studio or the like, but for animation, I don't think that's going to die anytime soon. I think that there's something that makes animation just shine when it's done that way.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: And there's a je ne sais quoi about breathing life into it, in person. The places where they're actually, interestingly enough, splitting people up is where they have a celebrity on the show and they're shooting something in…Toronto.   Brian Talbot: Got it.  Yep.   Heather Dame: And so, when you're working with that kind of context, sometimes they still will bring in the rest of the cast and have someone come in and just read those lines or have people scratch, people who are other members of the cast scratch that person's lines.   Randall Ryan: Right.   Heather Dame: Because they still want the magic of that. But they're not going to replace their lead role because they booked a series regular, and now they're shooting in Toronto. And so they have to pick that person up later in the ADR phase.  But there are some animated series that will do it, one person at a time. And usually it's for those sort of reasons.  But I'd say a lot of animated series, they have a regular day and tim, they record with their cast, and they try to stick to that as much as they can. There's obviously lots of circumstances around which they will change that around. But typically, let's say you book a lead role in an animated series, typically you know that you're recording every Tuesday from two to six, you're on hold for it indefinitely.   Brian Talbot: Sure. Heather Dame: And then they, depending on how prominent your character is, they book or release you for that hold. So that's generally how they operate, though they break that rule a lot, because of the amount of celebrities and name talent.  And technology is such now that where they feel more comfortable with the sound quality of studios that aren't in Los Angeles, and they can control that better. They are more willing to do it, but it tends to be the exception to the rule, not the rule itself.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: And in games, it depends on the game, but games that are really looking for more interaction and acting and are a little bit more cinematic are starting to do the same thing.  Like Blizzard will do that. Andrea likes to bring people in together…   Randall Ryan: Right.   Heather Dame: …and have them interact, and have their characters interact. And I saw you guys interviewed her. So that's, probably where this came up in your podcast, was with her. She does that quite a bit. And right when she thinks it's really going to make a difference to the product. And I think it's really smart, and I've heard my actress say, it's amazing, they love it. Like it is some of the best work they feel like they've done. Brian Talbot: It's so much more helpful as an actor to be able to interact, as opposed to just trying to create it all in your head and hope that you're getting to where you need to be. Absolutely. Heather Dame: Yeah. Randall Ryan: And they also do things like table reads ahead of time, which, that's one of the lovely things about working for a company of that size with those kind of pockets, is that they have the opportunity to do that. And I think that kind of bespeaks a little bit to some of the other things you're saying about how and why people outside of LA sometimes get the work is when budgets are not where you can actually say, "Hey, let's go to a studio for four hours and everybody's going to show up and let's do this, and we're going to do this every Tuesday." As you said. That's the other side of things, but gaming budgets are continuing to come up.  I know that for the stuff that I do, and some of this is because I've pushed for it for a long period of time, but I'm now seeing a lot of budgets that are coming up above scale. And even non-union things that are coming up above scale. And so, when you start getting things to that point, now you start to have that ability to do more ensemble stuff or to take that kind of time. And I wonder if that's kind of part of it, is that it is just that animation, this has just been the world that they've lived in, and games started from literally people in cubicles saying, "Can you do a voiceover?" And…I mean they started from a very different place.   Brian Talbot: Yeah.   Heather Dame: Yeah. So they're valuing what the actors bring to the table and to their scripts more than ever, I would say. Randall Ryan: Yes. Heather Dame: In gaming as well, because of the storylines they're creating.  But at the same time, what they were creating when they were doing it from their desk was very different. They were just like, "Smash."   Randall Ryan: laugh   Heather Dame: Like it's a very different thing now, when you're really having the full actor. It really is, it was a different beast. Voiceover looked different.   Randall Ryan: Oh yeah.  Oh yeah.   Heather Dame: If the game looks really rudimentary, like it used to, no one's going to balk when it doesn't sound like a real actor, because the game is rudimentary.  The whole thing has that kind of context to it.  But now everything looks so real to life, and it looks like a film, and the storylines are so intricate and games run the gamut.  Not everything is a war game. There's so many differing types of storylines and investment that the people playing the game have to have in order to keep playing your game and keep giving you their money, that you really do have to have real actors in there, who are really bringing something to the game that gets the people playing it invested, that they are in it with those people. It's also why you have such huge fandom in that world. Randall Ryan: Oh yeah. Brian Talbot: Yeah. And I think you just hit a really important point. It is about bringing acting back into voice acting, right? Heather Dame: It never left! Brian Talbot: Well, fair enough. But I mean, especially when games started out, it really was, it was go get Suzy or Jimmy down the hall.  We'll throw them in the booth and get a couple of sounds. But it really is now, I get asked from people, "I really want to do games and animation." I say, "Well, you need to go out to LA, and what acting classes do you take regularly?"   Randall Ryan:Right.   Brian Talbot: And they're like, "Well, no, but I've done some games. I've done some parts in games." And so, I'm like, "Unh-uh, that's not the way it works.”  It can't. It really is about being an actor first. Heather Dame: Yes. I like to tell people, because a lot of people do voices, a lot of the fans now... So what's an interesting trend that's occurring right now, is with technology, everybody thinks they can be a voiceover actor.   Brian Talbot: Yep.   Randall Ryan: Yep.   Heather Dame: Because all you have to do is build your booth, build it up and cool, I can go online and do something for 50 bucks and that makes me a voice actor. And so that takes away the emphasis on the acting, when they look at it from that way. And the reality is sure, you can go do someone's corporate video for 50 bucks online, and you can make that kind of money here and there and a little bit, but it doesn't make you a voice of actor in reality.   Randall Ryan: No.  Not at all.   Heather Dame: And you can also have a great voice, do many impressions, all sorts of things like that.  And that again, doesn't make you successful as a voiceover actor. Some of the most successful people we have, have really nondescript voices.   Randall Ryan:   Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: So when someone comes and says to us like, "I've got this great voice,” or “I can do all these impressions." And they start to do impressions, the reality is that's not what it's about.   Brian Talbot: No.   Heather Dame: Whether it's a commercial, promos…it doesn't matter what realm you're talking about. And in fact, I think it's interestingly enough, like promos and trailers, they require a really great deal of acting.   Randall Ryan: Mmm hmm.   Heather Dame: Because, it's really subtle and you have to connect to that copy. And it's pretty hard to connect to that copy. You listen to Scott Rummell read a trailer and he's connected to it. And if you were to look at that piece of trailer copy you could never produce what he produces and the emotion that he produces. You just couldn't, it's like brilliant.  And so, it's not even just in animation and games, it's across the industry, in every single aspect of it. There has to be an acting background and a connection to that script that you are reading, whether it's a commercial that you're selling for McDonald's or whether you're playing a lead role in an animated series. And it's one of those things where like in animation, it's very, these fans say, "Great, I can do all these impressions." And the thing I say to them is, "Cool, those jobs are already taken."   Randall Ryan: laughs Brian Talbot: Right? Yeah. So what would you do with the role? Heather Dame: Right, exactly. Like those jobs are already taken. Bart Simpson, it's already taken; someone already has that job. So they're not really casting for that. What we're really casting for is people who can look at a character and create, and bring that character to life off the script, have it live and breathe, create the scene around it, and interact moment to moment with that scene around it.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: And someone who can do that? And it's like a one man/one woman show in your head, you know?  And you create the entire thing and interact with it around you, and you breathe life into it that no one else can quite do. And the voice characteristic is just like a little brushstroke in your whole painting of your character. It's not the painting.   Brian Talbot: Oh, yeah.   Heather Dame: And so, it's that whole idea of “voice first” happens in trailers too. Get these guys with these really deep voices say, "I want to do trailers." And the reality is, you need to learn to be an actor first. Brian Talbot: Yep. Randall Ryan: Well, I think that's a holdover from radio though, because that's when the voice was the thing, and now it's acting first.  Voices can be, as you said, they're all over the map. I want someone with a high squeaky voice. I want someone with a reedy kind of... And actually you don't even necessarily think about that. I almost never give voice characteristic descriptions.  Almost never. It's all: what is the character, what does the character bring to the table there? The certain type of emotion, the mental aspect that they're coming from. Heather Dame: It's scene study, especially for the people who have gone to grad school for theater. Sometimes it takes them a minute to figure out how to harness their grad school abilities into voiceover. And I just look at them and I'm like, "It's scene study. It's the same thing. It's not different." Brian Talbot: Yep. That's exactly it. Heather Dame: It's not different at all. And they're like, "Oh, I get it now." You just spent a bunch of money learning this in grad school. And it's often the case with really well-trained actors too, that they need to learn the technical skill sets of how to take what they know as an actor and translate it into our medium as well. So I find I really enjoy finding really great actors and then helping them learn how to translate their skill in, or comedians and helping them learn to translate their skill in. That's typically how I find and develop talent, actually.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: Like that's kind of the modus operandi of how I've done it, is find a really great actor and then they can learn the skillset. Randall Ryan: How do you typically find talent? I mean, I know there's the whole ‘people send you reels’ and I don't want to get into that kind of stuff. Heather Dame: There's a thousand ways. There's no right way. I mean, we have a guy right now who we found, who's just a cold email he sent.  We took a listen to his demo and we're like, "Well, let's meet with him."   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: And he is doing really well. So there's no right way. There's definitely winning the lottery can exist, you catch someone, an agent, in the exact right moment in the exact right day where they're like, "I have a minute to click on this demo." They click on it. And if it presents as an opportunity to their roster in that moment of something that we don't book, because that's what you're looking for, right? So when you submit to an agent, and I try to say this to people, like an agent doesn't respond to you or I don't respond to you, don't view it as a negative feedback on your talent. What it means is that you, right now and what you bring to the table, doesn't present as an opportunity to me and our roster right now. So it may be that your category and what you bring to the table is already something I have a couple of people in that category.  But if you're coming at me with something unique and something different that we don't book, and I've been getting that spec all the time and we're just not booking it, that's going to be really interesting to me.  Even if you're a little bit more raw and you need more training, but you're a great actor and you fit this spec that I don't book, I'm like, "Okay, cool. I will spend more time with you and help you develop these skill sets and send you to the right coach and do all these things to help you."   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: Because a year from now you'll be booking those jobs for me.  Randall Ryan: Right.   Brian Talbot: Yep   Heather Dame: And it's a category, it's found money for both of us, because if we're not currently booking it, we don't currently have it on the roster, that presents as an opportunity to me. So it's the same thing as when I'm pitching business.  At the end of the day, when you go and try to sell something to someone, you do it as genuinely as you can, in whatever way makes the most sense to you and what you're able to bring to the table, and it will either present as an opportunity or not.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: And that's really the key, right?  You're looking to present as an opportunity to someone, and you can't control what's on the other end.   Randall Ryan: No.   Heather Dame: So for me, it can be a cold email. It is much easier, honestly, to get me to listen to the demo, if you spell our names right. Randall Ryan: As someone who gets called Ryan all the time, I concur! Yeah. That's actually just a really good point, because I talk to people about networking all the time, and I've never really put it that way and I've not heard it that way, but that makes an enormous amount of sense. The fallacy of selling, of networking, is that you want to present your best foot.  You do, but you don't want present an incorrect picture, because you're going to get found out. So just go ahead and say, "Look, this is what I've done." I think that's just a great point. "This is what I've done. I would like to be doing more than this. I've done these small projects and I believe that I have the chops to do larger ones. It's just a matter of different scripts." That says a lot to somebody. Heather Dame: Well, it says to me, you know where you're at and you're going to work hard to get there, and that you're tenacious.   Randall Ryan: Right.   Heather Dame: There's a way of operating and personal responsibility you're taking in that moment, that shows me that you line up with the way that we operate. One of the things we have a reputation for is being extremely honest. And I wish I could say that was purposeful. It's like my default in life. It's my best and worst asset, is how honest I am. It's served me well so far in agenting. so we'll hope that will continue. I believe strongly in honesty, truth and reality, is if you can handle all of that and face it and look at it, then it gives you the power to choose what to do next and make a difference.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm. Heather Dame: But if an actor comes to us and asks us how they're doing, and the reality is that their reads aren't up to par and they're just not quite hitting, and they do need to do some work on their reads, we're going to tell them that. And if they don't want to hear it, what I've seen over and over again is they don't do the work and they don't succeed.   Randall Ryan:Right.   Heather Dame: But when you have an actor who takes a look at that and says…no one wants to hear it, right?  First and foremost, no one wants to hear that. Like, that's just the reality.   Brian Talbot: Sure.   Heather Dame: That's not a circumstance an actor wants to hear/   Brian Talbot: Yeah.  Yeah, yeah.   Heather Dame: Bbut if they can take it and internalize it and look at it and say, "Okay, well now that I know that these are the things that are preventing me from booking, what am I going to do about it?”  And that gives them some power and control, which actors rarely have. It gives them something; it give them a way to move forward and deal in that reality. I also believe strongly that actors have a lot of responsibility to do a lot of the networking. And I say this a lot.  I feel like an agent and talent, the relationship should be a partnership. It shouldn't just be that I'm doing the pitching and then I deem whether or not you get those auditions, and I send them in and you either book it or you don't. And I don't tell you the information.  Randy, that would be back to your point earlier. That would be the reason why I'm comfortable with you building relationships with our talent, as long as you keep me in the loop, so I can make sure they get paid properly and all that jazz.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm. Right.   Heather Dame: For me, I want to make sure the business part is there, but I don't begrudge you wanting to build a relationship with the talent you book with us. And I tell them up front, the new talent you book with us, I tell them, "Randy likes to have a conversation directly with you. If he forgets to CC me, loop me back in." Randall Ryan: Yes. And I tell them that too. Like if I don't send it to Heather or Maria or whoever, you don't even have to ask me, just put them on there.   Heather Dame: Yep.   Randall Ryan: It might have been an oversight, but it doesn't matter. Just always bring them in. I'm not trying to go behind anybody's back, so please bring them in so we're all on the same page and then everybody's cool. Heather Dame: But that's a part of me saying I'm comfortable with the talent building relationship. In fact, I feel it's their responsibility.   Randall Ryan: Right.   Heather Dame: So you happen to be the person who casts them and directs them, but in a lot of the places in voiceover, oftentimes the person casting the talent and talking to us is not the person the talent's working with in the booth. Randall Ryan: Correct. Heather Dame: Right.  And that's, I'd say more often than not, which means that I have no relationship with the person who's directing them in the booth.   Randall Ryan: Right.   Heather Dame: If it's the director of the show, and in fact I've met those people at networking events and like, they think I'm so uninteresting. They like the actors.   Randall Ryan: laughs   Brian Talbot: aughs   Heather Dame: You're laughing, but literally, I thought that was a way to go for myself, because I was like, "Yeah, I'll build relationships with these people." That was something I tried at one point, and it turned out…because I'll go down any avenue and see how it goes as an agent.  And I was like, people aren't doing this, I should do that. And I did. And they were just like, "Cool. So you like negotiate contracts?"   Randall Ryan: laughs   Heather Dame: And then they would turn around to me, and almost inevitably they would have a friend who wanted to do voiceover, because they wouldn't know what to do with me and they would send me their demo.   Brian Talbot: laughs   Heather Dame: And that was it. Those people, but you put them in front of an actor and they're like, "Well I write for actors. I love actors. I'm writing this thing now, what are you doing? We're both creatives. And you make my scripts come to life. And isn't that so interesting."  And that's where they thrive, and that's the relationship the actor can build. And I can't build that for them.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: And those are their relationships, if they can hang on to them and build them. So those people will go from show to a different show, to a game company to, you know, they'll have a career.  Annd those actors may get to follow them if they build a relationship with them. I do view it as a full partnership. It's not only my job to build that relationship and get those auditions.  But it's also your job to build a relationship on your end. I basically view my job as getting the opportunities and then decreasing the competition.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: If you were just put it as simply as possible.    Randall Ryan: laughs   Heather Dame: Those two things are a key aspect of booking jobs in voiceover for your actors as an agent. But then, the actor can really make a difference, because if the person on the other end there, the director, knows them and worked with them on another project, they're going to want to hear their read. And then if you get in front of people, you can book the job. Brian Talbot: That's incredibly sound advice from someone who really knows what she's talking about. I kind of wish there were more people out there like you, Heather.  We really appreciate it. And we appreciate the time you've given us today. And we also appreciate that you're incredibly busy. So, Randall? Randall Ryan: Brian Talbot, BT. Brian Talbot: Heather. Heather Dame: Bye guys. Thank you so much. Randall Ryan: Thank you Heather. As always! Brian Talbot: Thanks so much. Bye. Heather Dame: Bye. Brian Talbot: Heather Dame, Atlas Talent. Enough said. Let's Talk Voiceover is hosted by Randy Ryan, owner of Hamster Ball Studios, delivering the world's best talent, virtually anywhere. And me, Brian Talbot, actor and all around creative guy. If you have comments, questions, ideas for other show topics you'd be interested in hearing, or you just want to let us know what you think, you can reach us by sending an email to bt@letstalkvoiceover.com, or go to the website at www.letstalkvoiceover.com. That's www.letstalkvoiceover.com. Hit us up on the social sites, the streaming sites. Thanks for listening to Let's Talk Voiceover. We'll talk again, real soon.