The Voice Director Presents: Let’s Talk Voiceover

A force of nature.  Inspirational.  Wickedly talented.  That's what colleagues say about Debra Wilson.  She's gone from improv comedy on the stage to sketch comedy on television to movies and one of the most sought-after voice actors in the industry.  Mad TV, The Weakest Link, Saints Row, Diablo, Destiny 2, Ratchet & Clank, World of Warcraft, Hearthstone...literally too many to list.  What stands out more than her credits is her passion and her love of the craft.   Get ready, because a conversation with Debra is a full-contact ride. Debra Wilson: ... I've been with CESD almost two decades. Randall Ryan: Wow. Yeah. That's you and Dave Fennoy. Debra Wilson: My crush, by the way. One of my crushes. Randall Ryan: Yeah. I think there's a “get in line” on that one. Debra Wilson: Yeah. Yeah…mmm. Randall Ryan: (laughs) Debra- Debra Wilson: I'm going to put you on the spot, ‘cause you're in there too, Randall Ryan, and you know that. Randall Ryan: Go ahead, put me on the spot. What are you putting me on the spot for? Debra Wilson: I just told you. I said I'm going to put you on the spot because you're in there too.  And you know that already. Randall Ryan: Oh, that I have a crush on Dave? Debra Wilson: No, you idiot. Gillian Brashear: (laughs) Oh, that was priceless. Who? Me? Little ol’ me?  Little ol’ Randall? Stop it! Debra Wilson: Thank you, Gillian. Thank you Goddess, for getting it.   THEME MUSIC Randall Ryan: A couple of weeks ago, I was speaking with one of the best and most well-known voice actors in the industry, and Debra Wilson's name came up.  “She has to be the best in the industry. I'm not even sure who's second.”  That's what this person said. I got to tell you, there is no higher praise in when your colleagues speak privately about you in those terms. Here's my story. The very first time I worked with Debra, she had a character who was supposed to speak an unintelligible language, and she was inventing this. The thing is that she hadn't even seen the script because it was under such tight NDA.  So, the first time she saw it was when she came into the studio. She not only did such a great job inventing this, and in a ridiculously short period of time, she set the bar for what everybody else was going to do with this particular race of people anytime that there was a character there.  And oh, by the way: she also voiced two other characters for the same game in the same session that had nothing to do with those. Years as a cast member on Mad TV, Savathun and Destiny 2, HALO, Saints Road, Diablo, Cosmonious High…she has way too many credits to even attempt a synopsis. It's better if you just hear from the fascinating person that is Debra.   So, let's talk voiceover, Debra Wilson. Debra Wilson: Yes. Let's talk voiceover Randall Ryan. Let's talk voiceover, Gillian. Gillian Brashear: Let's do. Debra Wilson: You need your own island. Gillian Brashear: Okay, great. I'll take it. Debra Wilson: Yeah, Gillian's Island.   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: And that's how it begins, Gillian. That's how it begins. Gillian Brashear: I'll take it. (laughs) You can come, too! You can visit my island, both of you. Debra Wilson: Yay. You have internet? Gillian Brashear: I will. It's called a pigeon. Debra Wilson: Call me when you do. Randall Ryan: I never have asked you this.   Debra Wilson: Uh huh.   Randall Ryan: You, at least to my consciousness came up more as doing comedy and especially doing sketch stuff. You don't do any of that anymore. Debra Wilson: It's not that I don't do it, it's just that it hasn't really come up. And it hasn't been a venue that's come up where it's like, wow, here's this offer. Wow, I want to create this type of show. Or, wow, let's go up and do some standup. Or, wow, let's host this event and bring out comedians. So there just hasn't been the opportunity to do that kind of stuff live more than anything else. And of course, you have to include, in that equation, the pandemic. Randall Ryan: So, for you, it was never a conscious, like you know, I think I'm done with this and I'm just going to go do this other thing. VO became kind of a venue for you that essentially filled your plate. Debra Wilson: Yes. And then, on-camera stuff started becoming less and less because I knew I was moving in a different direction. And I began to choose moving in a different direction and started getting tattooed, which was a subconscious as well as a very, very conscious decision creatively, which signified not being on camera as much or not being on camera at all. Randall Ryan: So, why? Whether you were actually eschewing it or not, why did you just say, "You know what, I think I'm either done with this or I'm not going to pursue it." And you moved into what, really, from an acting perspective is, almost a completely different realm. Debra Wilson: No, it's actually the same realm because people have a tendency to believe that voice acting is not acting. And so, it's the exact same realm, I just don't have the lights, camera, the makeup, the wardrobe, but I'm using my mind and I'm using my imagination, I'm using my third eye.  And I'm being able to be quite an amazing storyteller because I choose to delve into what I'm doing no differently than what I'm doing on front of camera. I may have cameras and stuff in front of me, but I've got a mic in front of me, and either way there is a story that needs to be told.  And at the end of the day, nobody wants to hear it, everybody wants to feel it.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: And so, being able to create from that space easily and more openly and more giving, and being able to bring myself to the table is really, really wonderful. And creating all of those varying choices.  Because no matter what, even if you're in a booth, you are never having a monologue. It's never a monologue, unless it specifically is written as a monologue, it's never a monologue, it's always a dialogue. It's always a conversation.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm. Debra Wilson: Even if the other being, other creature, other sentient thing that takes up space is not speaking, their emotions speak, their body language speaks. And so, you're still using your third eye no matter what. You get a chance to create that, and you get a chance to experience that and bring yourself to the table on both realms. So, it is no different. It's absolutely no different.  In fact, sometimes, it's even more challenging for me in voiceover emotionally because I go so deep. I bring up a lot of stuff, which is really wonderful and cathartic at the same time. But I'm very proud that I make sure that my most authentic voice of who I am begins to be a part of the being that gets the chance to come forth through me, through my voice, through my body, through my heart, through my third eye, to be able to have their story told.  And I'm very grateful that I'm that vessel for that. It just so happens that voiceover became so prominent before letting go, before me saying, no, I don't want to do this anymore. Or, hey, I'm moving away. Voiceover had already become prominent at that point. And, the realms of voiceover were a full spectrum: ADR, looping, book on tape, animation, straight announce, promo announce for NBC. And most recently, I'm the first woman and the first person of color to voice two major attractions, one at Disneyland and one at Disney World Orlando, the first one being the Jungle Cruise. Gillian Brashear: That's great. Randall Ryan: Wow. Gillian Brashear: That's fantastic, Debra. Debra Wilson: So, that's pretty significant. Disney has become so inclusive and they said we're going to flip the script to a certain extent in the narrative slightly. And if Albert Awol, traditionally, goes off on his wild adventure and leaves his capable sister to do it because they know each other and he trusts her with the radio station, then you get Skipper Missy, darling.   Gillian Brashear:(laughs)   Randall Ryan: (laughs) Debra Wilson: And most recently, at Disney World, which is a huge, I cried, I bawled when I found out I booked this, which is a significant thing for me.  After 40 years of using Tom Kane who had been doing the voice of the Monorail system, he's the Monorail captain, he's been doing it for 40 years, now it's me.     Randall Ryan: Wow.   Debra Wilson: So, I am now the new Monorail captain. I have recorded all of the dialogue. It's a lot of work and a lot of paperwork, but it's going to be interesting to see all these people from around the world in my mind's eye, or who live in the area and traditionally come, to hear a woman's voice. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome aboard. Gillian Brashear: That's amazing. I'm so excited for you for that. Debra Wilson: Thank you, goddess. Thank you, goddess. Yeah, it's pretty prolific. So, I run the gamut. Plus, I do a lot of creature voices for video. I worked on a film directed by Philip Noyce, Australian director who directed Clear and Present Danger. It's a film that you can find on Amazon Prime and it's called the Darkest Hour. And Naomi Watts is the only physical person in there. I think there's one snippet of a physical person, but you only see him from a rear-view mirror, only his eyes. And I play the 911 officer.  But the character's name is Dedra Wilkinson. And Dedra is spelled D-E-D-R-A.   Gillian Brashear: Uh huh!   Debra Wilson: And my name is spelled D-E-B-R-A. And her last name begins with W-I-L and so does mine. So, I like to believe in kismet. Randall Ryan: For many years now, I've made it a point of sticking around to watch the credits in movies and watching the extra voices and things of that nature. Debra Wilson: All the loop groups. Randall Ryan: Right, and it's amazing how many times you come up. I was like, "Oh, I know her." (laughs) Debra Wilson: (laughs) It's a lot of fun. And also, when Jane Lynch was hosting the revised version of The Weakest Link on NBC, I was the game show announcer for that. And Steve Harvey had a judge show. I don't know if it'll come back for another season on ABC prime time, and I was the court announcer on that, but it was all voiceover.  And so, I'm really digging voiceover to the point in which I really don't have the same passion or drive for on-camera because of the way I look. And at my age, it's easier to hire someone who looks like a grandma or a senior than to say, "Okay. Well, she doesn't have any hair and she has tattoos and we need to cover her up."  And so, it's easier to hire somebody who already looks the part than to cover me up. When it was all comedy, it was no problem covering me up, I wasn't nearly as tattooed. But when I say that I'm tattooed, I'm tattooed from the tips of my fingers all the way through my neck, down my entire body, to the tops of my feet. Gillian Brashear: Wow. Debra. Debra Wilson: I have a full body suit. Gillian Brashear: Wow. Randall Ryan: But I would say this, and Gillian's going to be able to speak to this more than me because she's got an on-camera career. But…   Gillian Brashear: Hmm.   Randall Ryan: …you don't look like anybody that I know. And I understand we're all doing voiceover. So, all of us kind of live in this world where nobody tends to know what we look like. I think you're extraordinarily striking.  Part of it is that you don't look your age. You don't look anything like what something is supposed to be.  And so, it would just seem to me that if this was something that you really wanted to pursue, which is why I'm guessing it's something that you don't. so it's obviously not something that you're even pursuing. At least, that's my guess. Debra Wilson: Correct. It's not anything I'm pursuing. However, if someone said, listen, I have an independent film. There's no money in it, but it's a passion project of mine. For me, it is the flip side of the same coin as voiceover. And if someone is saying, “I really hope that you will come in and help tell this story. This story is very important to me. And it speaks volumes to the world.”  In a heartbeat.  In a heartbeat for stuff like that.  As long as it's a project that I go, it's a passion project. I want to steep myself into this role and allow this being to come forth and tell their story. But they're far and few between, because a lot of the auditions that come in, and those are far and few between to begin with, are the sassy black grandmother.   Giilian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: The sassy black friend.   Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson:  The girlfriend who is friends with the others who went to college together, and one of them is dying of cancer, and they play music and they dance.  And one of them married a rich guy, but he's a ne'er-do-well and cheats on her.   Gillian Brashear: (chuckles)   Debra Wilson: And so, they all get together to be friends again, and you know, that kind of stuff. But I did a lot of that when I was on Mad TV, ‘cause those are real sitcom characters.  And some things never change in television.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: It has to a certain extent in how it's shot.  Things like Modern Family, those amazing characters, they're all layered.   Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: But it's still a sitcom, and it still has its parameters.   Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: And so, because of those parameters, I realize in voiceover I don't have any parameters.  The only parameter I can set is a limitation for myself, and I choose not to do that. And so, no one cares whether I'm a little boy or if I'm a dragon. No one says, "Is that dragon black? Is that dragon a woman?" Unless it's specifically in the specs that way, but nobody cares.  And as I get older, I'm working more than I've ever worked. I'm 60 and the momentum is only growing. I'm also Daisy Duck for Disney. Randall Ryan: Are you really? (laughs)   Gillian Brashear: (laughs) Debra Wilson: I know. Who would have thunk it when you look at me, right? And you hear this voice and (as Daisy Duck) “all of sudden and this comes out. Really? Quackers. Oh, Donald!”   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: But it was done by the prolific and amazing Tress MacNeille, who I know both of you know. But when it comes to the show that she was doing initially for the first season called Mickey Mouse Funhouse on Disney Junior, she said, "I don't want to do a second season. I'm so busy with so many other things."  And Daisy Duck was a huge commitment because sometimes it branches out into other things that are Disney-oriented.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson:  And it has for me already. So, it's been very, very lovely. And it was a grueling audition process because I don't do soundalikes. And initially, they wanted someone who sounded very much like Tress MacNeille doing Daisy Duck, and that's a tall order.  Because Tress MacNeille is fucking brilliant, number one. And number two, to sound like somebody who's doing something else as opposed to sounding like them. And I kept thinking, I don't do soundalikes. I don't enjoy soundalikes unless it's Whoopi Goldberg, who I have down, Oprah Winfrey, who I have down, and Viola Davis, who I have down.  But our timbres are all in those same registers.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: I didn't enjoy the process. The first time I did it it took me three hours to get through a single audition and sent it to my agent. And then the second time I got a call back, and the first thing I thought was "Why?"  It wasn't a joyful “Hey, guess what? You got a call back!” It was like, Ugh. So, now, I have to go through a grueling process again of sounding like a woman who sounds like Daisy Duck.   Randall Ryan: (laughs)   Gillian Brashear: (chuckles)   Debra Wilson: I did the call back and I went, okay, I don't do soundalikes, but guess what? Here's the positive.  At least I got through a second audition, a call back for a soundalike and I don't do soundalikes and I don't enjoy soundalikes, and yet I got a call back.  That's really great. That's the end of that. That's what I did. I wiped my hands and went, that's great.  Until I got a third callback, and I went, "What the fuck?" It was not joyful.   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Randall Ryan: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: But when I went in the third time, I was like, "Oh, fuck." And I didn't mean to tank the second audition, but I showed up an hour and five minutes late.   Randall Ryan: Mmmm.   Debra Wilson: I was on my motorcycle and I took a route.  And I was like, "Oh, I'll find my way around Burbank this way. I'll go this way."   Randall Ryan: Mmm..   Debra Wilson: And I didn't know how I ended up. And I came in and was like, "I am so sorry. I really am." And I really was. But they were gracious. The folks at Disney were so absolutely gracious, like they really wanted to hear me.  And the last time I went in, of course, I was on time and I was like, "Okay, just go through it again and this is going to be it. They're going to choose someone else. So, just go in and do what you have to do. You've done it twice already. This is like a third tooth being pulled. You're used to it. No, no, we can't, here we go."   Randall Ryan: (laughs) Debra Wilson: And it was different. Something clicked. And it was one of the most fun auditions. It was silly. I bunny-hopped through it. It was amazing. And my amazing agent, Pat Brady, who has a close relationship with the Disney Corporation who is now retired, had a retirement party.  And someone from Disney was there and said, "I want to tell you something, I'm a producer on the show and congratulations, we wanted you. But what ended up happening is Disney corporation wanted that Tress MacNeille sound. They were afraid of losing that and losing audience.”  But they didn't know what they wanted. So, their conformity was the Tress MacNeille template.   Randall Ryan: Mmm hmm.   Debra Wilson: But not just Tress MacNeille, Tress MacNeille as Daisy Duck template, which is a tall order. And so, he said, "Well, what is Daisy Duck? What is Daisy duck? Who is Daisy Duck?  And all these Daisy Ducks that came before Tress. What is it to the corporation as opposed to this person that didn't exist when Daisy Duck was around? So, what is Daisy Duck? If you had to describe her, you would describe her by personality, but not by a person, not a human being.  You're making her a human being. You're making Daisy Duck Tress MacNeille, and it should be the other way around. So, who is Daisy Duck? And can this person, Debra Wilson, be Daisy Duck in all of those characteristics that has always been Daisy classically, and the stuff that has been written for Tress MacNeille, in general, in how we've kind of evolved Daisy Duck just a smidge from the 1950s and 60s, can we just update her?”   And so, when they said, "Okay, here's what you do. Here's Daisy in this situation,” and I had to do some soundalike stuff.  And then, they stopped the soundalike stuff almost immediately and went straight into “let's do an episode.”   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: “Here's how Tress does it. We're not asking you to do Tress. We're just asking you to be Daisy: sassy, fun, all of those things, in this register though.  The only thing we require from Disney is this particular register because we don't want it to match with Minnie Mouse.”   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: And so, I did. And then, I became Daisy. And they let me become Daisy. And Daisy became me. So, the next person who does Daisy Duck, it will always be prolifically, and it will always be classically, what they want for Daisy Duck.  And can you fit the role and fit the bill as Daisy Duck with these characteristics in these specs?   As opposed to you have to sound like Debra Wilson, she did it before and you have to sound like the Debra Wilson as Daisy Duck.   Randall Ryan: Mm Hmm.   Debra Wilson: (as Daisy Duck) So, now, Daisy sounds like this, but not too far Tress MacNeille. Quackers, really?  Oh, Minnie! Mickey! Oh, Donald, really?”   Randall Ryan: (laughs) Gillian Brashear: So did you do Daisy before you did your bits for the Monorail and the Jungle Cruise? Debra Wilson: I've been doing Daisy Duck for about a year now.   Gillian Brashear: Mm.   Debra Wilson: Because what they did is they said, "Well, we've got a lot of catching up to do. Since we know that Tress MacNeille is no longer interested in doing the series, we've got a lot of catching up to do.”  So every recording session, usually on Fridays, was five to six episodes per Friday.  And along with music. And I had to sing in Daisy Duck's register.   Randall Ryan: Oh, yeah.   Debra Wilson: Which is a challenge for me with my voice. But, I managed it because it was Daisy and I was like, "Whatever, you're not you. So, stop thinking about you're a register. You're Daisy." And if you can talk like Daisy, then you can sing like Daisy, and you will. And I sing. So, it's like, you got this.  You got this. Randall Ryan: You know, Gillian, you were saying something to me, I don't even know how long ago it was. But you said something about Debra and just the way that she throws herself into something that's a little bit different than somebody else, I don't remember exactly what you said with that. Gillian Brashear: Well, what I find so interesting about working with you Debra, and also listening to you talk is just the total abandoned into the depths that you're willing and wanting to go, and I think that's really interesting. So, I think the conversation that we had been having, Randall, was that sometimes people do need to be, I don't want to say led, because I don't know that that's particularly fair, but allowed.  Here, you can do this and you can go farther. And there's just more to do with the characters. I think it's rare sometimes when you hear someone approach a character and you go, "Wow, I had never considered that" or "That is so really interesting. I actually have to stop and listen to it for a bit just to let it all soak in all the levels of what is happening.”  And that sort of gets in a nutshell of what happens for me when I'm working with Debra. (laughs) Debra Wilson: (giggles) I call it immersion and possession, because I need that being to take over. So, before I start any session I will ask a million questions, and then I will talk to them as that person; that person will come through me.  It really is like an immersion and possession.  And that person will come through…   Gillian Brashear: Mmm.   Debra Wilson: …and they'll tell you a moment about their lives. And then, they'll begin. It works for two reasons: because I allow that possession to take place, that person is completely aware of their life. They're conscious, they're now a sentient being in their life, and they're just using my body to do it.  And the booth director and the game devs or whoever's listening in can also go, "Yes, we like this voice. Let's raise the register. Let's give her more of this. Let's give her more of that." And so, it works as a dual purpose. But once I'm involved, I have an emotional aspect to this life, a personal aspect to this life, a family aspect.  And what I'll do is I will break down that story immediately in that booth, as I am introducing myself. And I'll tell you about my life, where I've been, why I am, who I am. So, I never go approach anything without asking why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why? Because all those details are important because a lot of people don't pay attention to it. But emotionally, they register that vibration…   Gillian Brashear: Mmm…   Debra Wilson: …because it comes from a reality and it becomes from an authenticity.   Gillian Brashear: Yeah.   Debra Wilson: So how you're looking at somebody and how somebody looks at you, you can't hide it.  Just like body language.  You can't hide it.   Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: And so, it's really, really important because body language should be used, because it says I'm not hiding my authentic being in this moment. I'm giving it a door opening, so that this other being can come through and use it and tell their story.   Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: They don't have their own emotion fully because they came from a page.  But they have mine, and they go, "Yes, I can relate to that." So, I'm going to take that and borrow that, and I'm going to cut myself open with your past. And that's how I work. Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.  That makes a lot of sense to me because I am listening when I'm in the director mode, but also as an actor, too. I'm always listening for that tone or that scintillation that is the sound of something being true. You just know it when you hear it like, aha and that's it. That's the one, that's where everything comes together: the reality, the truth of the character, and the emotion drops in. And then, suddenly, it's alive. Randall Ryan: There are actors that do this. It's kind of like Gillian saying there are some people that need to be led and that's not really fair,  because that's NOT really fair. But you seem to have the ability to both simultaneously allow yourself to be very vulnerable with what you impart, with what you do, with what you allow to come to the table. Randall Ryan: And yet, you never lose yourself. It's an interesting juxtaposition. What is the mechanism that allows you to essentially throw all of yourself onto the table and throw yourself into a character, and allow all those personal vulnerabilities to come forth in the character and then still just be able to turn on and say, "Thanks. That was fun guys." And walk away. Debra Wilson: Sometimes, I do have a bit of a challenge walking away immediately, and they say, "Hey, you okay? You need a break?" And then, I just recalibrate. So, sometimes it does take me a minute. Even if the scene takes three seconds, four seconds, where I'm saying one word.  But the one word is very, very loaded like a no or a yes or anything else. And so, it's not a throwaway, it means everything. Because one word can be the emotional stretch and expanse of years of experience or years of pain in that one word. And so, my job is to serve the project.  Initially, I'm a storyteller. And people say voiceover and I say, yes. But first and foremost, before being a voiceover artist or a voice actor, I am a storyteller. And so, it's important for me to tell your story. And so I'm here to serve your project. And I liken it like this. You hire a babysitter and you go out for the night. And the babysitter calls their friends and lets the kids run around, and lets them do what they want while their friend comes over, and they drink a beer out of the fridge. And right before their guardian comes home, they put the kids in bed.  They wash their face quickly, brush their teeth and say “Shh. now, pretend you're sleeping.”  And so, they don't really pay attention. But an au pair says, "I will treat your children like they're my children." So, there is no phone that I have with me. No one is allowed over.  I read with them, I engage them, I help them with homework, I play with them, I stimulate them.  We watch something that is child-friendly, that is of your approval. I give them snacks that is of your approval. I bathe them. I put them in bed.  I read them a story. I tuck them in. And you come in to do the rest by tucking them in or seeing that they're asleep, safe and sound. And so for me, it's the same thing with somebody's story. When they want to tell the story, whether it's a video game or an animation or anything, I have to be your au pair.  I have to make sure you get everything you want so that you go “this is purely my vision. And little did I know that this would be the voice.”  Because a lot of times in voiceovers people are like, and especially with commercials, I don't know until I hear it.   Randall Ryan: Yeah.   Debra Wilson: You know, they can describe something, but it's like, mmm…I'll know when I hear it.  And so, my responsibility is when I book something to be able to support and help you carve out that thing that is definitive and why: the emotion, the psychology behind it, and ask you every question to go “why,” so that being comes to life and you go, "Fuck, that's what I’m…that’s it.  That's it." So I ask questions, and I make sure that I dig into myself on that psychological level and on that emotional level and that cutting-that-self-open level, so that that being becomes so three-dimensional that you go, "This is what I had in mind. And now it's off the paper."   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm. Debra Wilson: It's jumped off the paper, it's jumped off the pages and it's exactly what you want.  Which makes it easier when you're directing me, because now, that is a full body that has depth and breadth. You can go, "I want this, I want this. I don't want this. I don't want this. Try it this way, try it this way, do it this way, do it this way. Don't do it this way, blah, blah, blah." And that being is just there to tell their story. And they know that you are guiding them and helping them tell their story. They know that directors and game developers are there to help them tell their story so that they can be alive. And so, it's easier for me to be directed by people who are like, "I want this, I don't want this. I want this. I don't want this. Okay, do this, do this, do this, do this."  Because it's not a dictation to me. It's not a dictatorship. It's a matter of, this was your baby. And now, I am here to serve your project. And in serving your project, I want to be all that you expect and all that you want and all that you need, and beyond that. So that you go, I'm so proud of this.  I look forward to doing this. And everyone goes, "Yes, this role is fulfilled." And it becomes something that's important. I did a video game and I had no idea how massive and internationally prolific this game is, and it's called Destiny and Destiny 2.   Randall Ryan: Right. Debra Wilson: I had no idea who Savathun was. I didn't play the game. I don't know anything about it. I've heard the title. And then, when I got the role, I still didn't know. And so, I was just bringing the humanity to this being because people have the tendency to use the word evil; she's evil.  And I'm like, well, I don't believe that anyone's evil.  I believe that they have an intention that you just don't understand. She has to be that loner who does what she needs to do in order to reach a particular goal, whether people understand it or not.  And that, in and of itself, has an emotional toll on a being, to know that no one is with them. And so, they turn their back on everything as everything is turned their back on them. So, instead of being just this evil, non-emotional being, the psychopath, it's because you have not been loved.    Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: And so, I'm always bringing those human elements because I don't care if you're playing the sentient being or a tree, the moment it speaks it has human emotions. The moment it speaks!  And therefore, there isn't any role that I can't bring my emotional and psychological self to. Randall Ryan: I agree. Debra Wilson: This game went nuts when it came out, because it came out on Tuesday, 2/22/22.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: And I got massively solicited on Cameo to do cameos as this Savathun. And a fan had to tell me the lore of Savathun and the lore of Destiny and how it's played, and the massive groups that play it across the world in clans.  And it was really powerful, and it was really wonderful. And some people even came to me on Cameo, some people like, "I'm going through something and I need the strength of Savathun. Would you do her voice and strengthen me and somehow, or offer advice or share with me?"   Randall Ryan: Mm hm. Debra Wilson: And so, it's been a great vehicle that people have emotionally used this character to go, "I need something in my life," or "I feel like I'm missing something and I want to connect."  And I've been able to take what I do in the booth outside of my booth and authentically share with people. And that to me was the greatest gift of all. Randall Ryan: Were you the original person doing Savathun or did you replace somebody else? Debra Wilson: There was no Savathun.  Savathun had been talked about in Destiny lore for 10 years, 10 years. Randall Ryan: So, you are the original? Debra Wilson: Yes. There's just been dialogues and monologues of Savathun, but she had never been a playable character and no one had ever really seen her. So, she's in the lore. But this was the first time, Destiny 2 The Witch Queen was actually, oh, my God, we get a chance to really see Savathun because she's all throughout the lore. But now, we get a chance to see who she is and what her voice is. Randall Ryan: Interesting. Interesting. The other question I kind of have along the same line of the first one was: given that you at least, again, to the consciousness of someone like myself came up through comedy, what was your love first? Was it literally just acting and storytelling? Was it comic? Was it just performance in general? Because you also sing, all of that.  What took you from childhood, essentially, to this is what I'm going to do. Debra Wilson: You're absolutely right. It was acting and storytelling. I loved being other people. I loved being other people for reasons that had been dark, because of childhood trauma. And I loved being other people because I was fascinated with how I could glom on and absorb.  I was relentless when it came to glomming on something and absorbing.  I learned how to do an English accent by the time I was like five years old.   Randall Ryan: Wow.   Debra Wilson: My parents thought it was a hoot..   Randall Ryan: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: …because it was a Diet Rite soda commercial, and the woman on the commercial was British.  And I glommed onto wanting to do accents. And because of falling in love with that English accent from that commercial, I wanted to watch The Monkees for Davey Jones. And I wanted to watch H.R. Pufnstuf, and anything that had a British accent.  British comedies, the Beatles, any interviews with people that were Brits.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: Any British movie.  So, for me, I was glomming on and I glommed onto character actors. I glommed onto those that were the bad men of character actors in the 1970s and '80s. I had to be the only one my age, who was 13, 14 years old, who would buy a TV Guide.  And back then, TV Guide would do a cast list after it did the synopsis.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: And I would circle the cast lists to see who these actors were and watch them. And I realized for me at an early age psychologically, I was also the only kid that I knew that had a subscription to Psychology Today at the age of 14.   Randall Ryan: (laughs) Gillian Brashear: (laughs) Who were some of those favorite actors that you circled? Debra Wilson: Oh, my God, William Smith, Anthony Zerbe. Oh, my God. They're just so many of them. Juliet Lewis's father, Jeffrey Lewis. I was obsessed with him. I was also obsessed with JB Perry. JB Perry turned out was Matthew Perry's father. Robert Pine, who turns out that he's Chris Pine's father.  I was obsessed with Robert Pine. Kevin Spacey, he did a series called Wise Guy on CBS, and it was a recurring role for a whole season.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: And he was a psychopath and it was amazing. And so, I loved watching these psychopaths because I knew that there was emotional and psychological damage.  There was a kinship for me because I felt my own emotional and psychological damage. Of course, they acted out on it, and they were my escape. Their pain was so great that they did what they did. Gillian Brashear: Fascinating. Were there women as well? Debra Wilson: Not so much women because it was the '70s and the '80s.   Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: More than anything else, you had Wonder Woman, you had Charlie's Angels.   Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: So, more than anything else, you had women that were heroes and women that were badasses.   Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: Women's lib, all of it, you know?  And then, you had women in comedy who I fell in love with because of what they do. Ruth Buzzi!   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: Joanne Worley…   Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: …who became heroes. Carol Burnett!   Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: It was just... I was obsessed. Lucille Ball. So, for me, they were the other spectrum of not just comedy but heroes.  They were prolific.   Joan Rivers, who I ended up working with, on a series with her. People like that who caught me as women who were coming to the forefront, and who had to deal with the men who said, "Women aren't that funny."   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: They said it behind closed doors while they were smoking their cigarettes. And it was general knowledge in the industry that women weren't funny; that's why women never got the chance.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: But yet, Joan Rivers still was the first woman to ever host the Tonight Show.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: It was brilliant. And her symbol was always a bee. And the reason her symbol and jewelry and everything else was a bee was because according to the physics and the physiology of a bee, its body weight is too massive for its small wings, proportionately, so it's not supposed to fly.  But tell that to the bumblebee that's already flying.   Randall Ryan: Right.   Debra Wilson: And her thing was, you can't tell a bumblebee that it can't fly. And that's what she was, and that's what she was symbolic of. She was an amazing human being and I loved working with her.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: And she also cut herself open in order to share.  I was her audience warmup as well.   Gillian Brashear: Wow!   Debra Wilson: And because I volunteered. I said, "I want to do the warmup. I want to do the warmup." And what I did was I memorized everybody's name in the audience. So that by the time she came ou, I introduced them individually.   Randall Ryan: (laughs) Gillian Brashear: That is fascinating. Debra Wilson: And here's the also thing about kismet: my manager at the time's name was Joan Rosenberg. And Joan River's married name is Joan Rosenberg. Randall Ryan: I did not know that. Debra Wilson: And so, at the audition she just said, (as Joan Rivers) "Oh, I like her. Hire her. Yes. Oh, she's the one. She's the one.{   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: “I love her already. She's great." And that's how that came to be. Because when I auditioned, I was doing improv. For me, it was like, it doesn't matter whether I get this.  And I think going into acting, it wasn't a matter of where's my agent and what do I have to do? And I'm going to get this and I'm going to make this. It was a very lackadaisical attitude that I've always had and I still have. Like it'll come, and you just be yourself and have a good time. And that's a rarity because most people do the hustle thing.   Gillian Brashear: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: And I have to admit, I never hustled. I never. I am 60 years old and I never had to hustle for work. When it didn't come I had to let it go. And that was a psychological and emotional challenge for me.  But I never tried to hustle for work and get that back. Never. And so, when the Joan Rivers thing happened, it was, I don't care if I get this. Right now, my audition is with Joan Rivers on a stage here at CBS Studios in New York on 11th Avenue and 57th Street.  The lights are on, I'm dressed for the audition and they're shooting my audition like it's a TV show.  Fuck it. I'm on TV with Joan Rivers right now. I don't give a fuck if I work this show!   Randall Ryan: (laughs)   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: I already have this. This moment is it for me. I did not care. This moment was it.  This moment was the job.  And if I do a great job here, I don't care because even if I don't book it, I don't go “what did I miss? What did I not do?”  I'm leaving it on the floor. I'm spilling it all on. And because I had been doing improv in New York in comedy theaters with troupes, she could throw stuff to me and I would throw it right back.  And I would joke with her and there was no audience there, but I would go to the cameraman, "Hi, what's your name? Okay. Try this, watch one. How did blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And then, you had to read a prompter, and then “Back to you Joan.”  And so, I played with her. It was Joan Rivers!   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: So, I conversed with her. It was never like, "Hi, Debra." And I was like, "Hi, Joan." No, "Hey, Joan, how are you today? We're going to have a great show, aren't we? Well, actually, you're going to have a great show. Aren't you? Okay, well I'm looking forward to it." And she's like, "Tell us about this, watch Debra.”  “Sure."  And I could sell ice to Eskimos at that point…   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: …because it was pretend.  It was the biggest fun pretend. That was the first time I went “this is amazing. And if I don't get it, that's fine.”  And I remember doing voiceovers in my friend's basement because I would hear these radio commercials with voiceovers and I would go and find magazines, and then read all of the text from the magazines, from the ads in the magazines.  And I would ask my friend: listen, you have a studio, a music studio. Would you just put music behind this and then put it on a cassette for me? And I would listen going, did I sound good enough, like it would be a real spot?  Yup. Okay. I'm done.  So, I never pursued it. But it was a matter of: could I be as good as someone I hear?  And did I feel it? And did it work? And I was very meticulous back then as well, because I wanted to sound just like everyone else. I wanted to be as professional as everyone else. And when I sounded that way, I was done.  Same thing with Joan Rivers. Randall Ryan: So, you talk about the hustle. You talk about the not-doing-the-hustle. Debra Wilson: Correct. Randall Ryan: How did the work initially come about? Because very few people, if lucky as even the right word, get that kind of  lucky where there's just enough work, especially initially, that they don't have to hustle. Debra Wilson: Here's how it started: working for the city of New York Parks and Recreation, decide to go downtown Manhattan because Young Guns was opening up.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: Got a chance to see it, came out early, it was already in downtown. I was in the Village. Somebody was handing out flyers for a show. Improv at the beginning.  What do you mean improv? Oh, these guys that come out, they get suggestions from the audience and then they create comedy on the spot. That's really cool. Preface, I'd already gone to the high school of performing arts.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: But I didn't take it seriously.  Like, it was fun to be immersed in that. But like Joan Rivers…yes, I ended up booking the show. But if I didn't, it was like, this is an amazing experience.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: So, for me, I was always living to be in the experience in that moment. But I was like, I don't want to starve.  I don't want to have to work hard at this; I want to enjoy it. And the moment it's not fun for me. I'm like a three-year-old: I'm out and I cry. I don't want to do this.   Randall Ryan: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: So, I said, I'm not hustling for stuff like that. I'm not going to be a starving artist. People who have to do this for their art.  They're just passionate about it. I'm like, "Yeah, great for you. I like having food in my stomach, I don't know about you. I like a roof over my head and I like my jewelry." So, I went to the show. Everyone was with a group. I was very much a loner still.  And at one point the improv group goes, "Hey, we'd like a volunteer from the audience," which is a part of their show. No one would get up. People were pushing each other, no, you go, you go, you go.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: I had done theater. I came from the high school's performing arts.  So, for me, it was like, "Okay, let me just see what this is." Because I didn't know what improv was. So, for me, it was an experiment.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: Because it was so “improv? What's improv? I don't know, come and see the show.: Went, raised my hand and it was only two rules, yield and don't deny.  So whatever happens, go along with everything.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: Don't deny it, go along with everything. Great. So, there was an improv, they got all the suggestions from the audience and I'll never forget. It was a spy mystery movie and it was called The Game. The exercise was called Foreign Movie.  So, two of the improv troupe would sit down in the audience and they would dub what we were doing into English…   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: …while I mouthed gibberish. And the other actor who was in the troupe would mouth gibberish. And so, whatever these two said, we had to do.   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: Unless we took over.  And then, whatever they said after that we would do. And so, it was a spy movie that took place in Paris on the Eiffel Tower. And at the end, we fall off. And that was the suggestion.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: So, for me, I was already in that mindset to have fun. I'm like, "Okay, only two rules to this game?  Fucking easy!”   Randall Ryan: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: Yield and don't deny. Go along with it.  I go along with everything. And so, for me, I got... like a child, I got immersed. So, it became very real for me.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: And so for me, I didn't see the humor in it because I wasn't trying to be funny. I was trying to do the improv, which was you’re a spy and you're going to fall off the Eiffel Tower.  But the people who are doing your voice are telling you. So, they're the vessel, they're filling my vessel.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: Just like every character that I do with voiceover fills my vessel and then it's commitment time. And that's exactly what happened.   Gillian Brashear: Hm.   Debra Wilson: The owner of the troupe said, "Listen, we don't have a lot of black people that do improv, and certainly not a lot of black women. Would you join the troupe?"  "No, I have a city job." Okay. But would you like to do a workshop, just for fun and do it some more? Like if you don't want to come back on-stage and do it and you don't want to join the troupe, let's do a workshop. On a Saturday, we're just all coming around.  We're playing and coming up with new ideas for games.” Okay, I'd like to sit around and meet you guys again and say hi again. Absolutely, after working with you. I did, there were three other black women there. And I went, what the fuck is this scam?   Randall Ryan: (laughs)   Gillian Brashear: (laughs) Debra Wilson: And we all played. And I'm like, "This man is trying to get into black women's panties."   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: ‘Cause there are only black women here. He's done it. Because that's what I thought. He must have done this with other women…   Randall Ryan: Uh huh.   Debra Wilson: …and got them on-stage. And it was like, "Hey, you know, come and play."   Gillian Brashear: Mm hm. Debra Wilson: And then, pick the pussy he wants. That's what I felt.   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: That's what I felt. He going to pick the pussy he wants, you know what I'm saying? Like a fucking box of Toblerone.   Randall Ryan: (laughs) Gillian Brashear: (laughs) Box of Toblerone! Debra Wilson: What ended up happening is everybody left, and it was just me and him. And I was like, “I'm going to have to beat this white man down. I'm going to have to beat this white man down in the rehearsal hall in Manhattan.”  And he said, "I just wanted to let you know that this was a professional audition."  They have picture and resume. But you, you get so into it and you listen and you pay attention, and you're not trying to force yourself. You know how to flow. You naturally do improv. We work on the weekends. It won't interfere with your city job and we make money.  You can bring friends. You can bring family. They get a chance to see you perform. If you do no other performance, think about it. We would love to have you in the troupe. You're a new addition,. you're a new dynamic, you're a black woman. We don't get a lot of black women that do improv.  You're going to bring a whole new dynamic to this all-white troupe. And you have your voice. I mean, your voice!  And I went, "okay."   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: A month later, amanager was there because she had a standup who was coming on after us. “Hey, you know what? You're really wonderful. I would really love to represent you.”  No, I don't do this professionally. This is fun. “You sure?” Mm hm. I don't do this. This is just fun, thank you very much.  The person she was representing was a man at the time.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: So anyway, troupes come and go and I'm learning how to write now. Oh, this is fun.    Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: So, I'm learning how to write and I'm already doing what I'm doing with the improv and this is great. We're writing sketches and we're writing improv pieces and things. And this is improv exercises and improv games. This is really great! One of the women in there, Nancy Murrah, God love her. I just adore this woman.  So, she ends up joining, it's an all-women's group called Significant Others. We write, we play, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We do some stuff. Nancy says, "Listen, I'm auditioning for a TV show. It's a pilot. I think you should audition with me." "Nancy. I don't do this professionally." "I know, you say that, but you're already been doing it professionally because you get paid for it.  And it's just a pilot, it may go nowhere, but it's going to be fun to audition. And you're not a threat because we work together. And I don't see your talent overshadowing mine. And I don't see my talent overshadowing yours.  But we worked together, because we had this Clarence Thomas sketch and it was hilarious.    Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: And she's like, "Let's do the Clarence Thomas sketch and going with our individual characters."   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: So, we did and we both booked it. And she said, "Now you're going to need a manager." She introduced me to her manager, which was the same woman I had turned down, years before.   Randall Ryan: (laughs) Gillian Brashear: Wow, fantastic. Debra Wilson: And so, that's why I mean, I honestly, I stumbled my way up. And with voiceover: same thing.  Two things I always did as a kid, and I grew up doing, because people were fascinated: authentic baby crying and dogs, dog barking. Dog barking in the distance, growling dogs, fighting rottweilers, that kind of a thing. And I would run up behind my friends (snarls & growls). Gillian Brashear: (laughs) And I bet they loved that. I bet your friends really loved that. (laughs) Debra Wilson: Oh, yeah, they absolutely love that. I kept friends for a lifetime.   Randall Ryan & Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Debra Wilson: But what I would do is I would stand behind them and then grab them at the back of their knee. Gillian Brashear: Oh, my gosh, it'd be terrifying! Debra Wilson: It's terrifying. Gillian Brashear: Oh, my God, I'm surprised you didn't get hurt! Debra Wilson: I know it. But it was funny to me!  It was funny to me!  Someone laughed! And so, I was in the audience at a comedy theory at LaBrea, not in the audience. I was onstage because it was a young man named J. Keith van Straaten. And I was on the show What's My Line, and they brought out celebrities from the '50s and '60s and '70s, and that's my time period. So, they brought them out, they talked about their lives and what they're doing. And we had to guess who they were. And then, there was of course that chat interview from j. Keith van Straaten.  “And what are you up to now? And thanks very much.”  And then, there was a board like on the original show, not a wiper board, but cardboard.  And it had a frame as if it were a picture. And they would write their name when they came out.  Someone stood behind it and pulled the sign up so it looked like it disappeared.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm. Debra Wilson: And for me, it was like, when I looked at it the first thing I thought was this is a magic trick for a baby, like peek-a-boo. So, I did my baby giggles and my baby laugh. Little did I know that Paul Doherty, the Head of Cunningham-Escott-Slevin and Doherty…   Gillian Brashear: Hmm.   Debra Wilson: …was in the audience because his client was J. Keith van Straaten.  He asked me to take a meeting. I met all their agents. They were sitting in a conference room. And all I was was like, "Well, okay, what do you want to hear?" For me, it was like I was five years old again.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Debra Wilson: "You want to hear my English accent?"  Because again, I had nothing to lose.    Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Debra Wilson: I had nothing to lose except having fun. And I believe in being in the moment. And so, acting was in a kinship to me because it was always about being in the moment. And voiceover is in a kinship to me. about being in the moment, I've been with CESD almost two decades. Randall Ryan: Debra, one of the most fascinating things about you is that I always look up and I cannot believe how much time has gone by.  And I find you fascinating, I always have. Debra Wilson: Oh, thank you. Randall Ryan: You're just your own unique being and, both as an actor and as a person. And I think that's awesome. Debra Wilson: And it's not because of my tarantulas and scorpions? Randall Ryan: Yeah, I don't know.   Gillian Brashear: (chuckles)   Randall Ryan: Well, I live with tarantulas and scorpions, so I don't care. Debra Wilson: Okay. Well, see?   Gillian Brashear: (laughs) Randall Ryan: That would probably be neither a draw nor a detriment.   Debra Wilson: Okay.   Randall Ryan: It's like, oh,oh you have these things. Okay, whatever. Debra Wilson: See?  There's the kismet. Randall Ryan: There's the kismet. Debra Wilson: There's the kismet all over again. Randall Ryan: There's the kismet. Gillian Brashear: I just want to say: in listening to your story about you, about all of these aspects of you, the pictures that were coming into my mind with your beautiful descriptions, honestly, it was breathtaking to hear everything that you had to say. And I feel so fortunate to have been able to work with you as I have.  I really thank you for that. Debra Wilson: Thank you, goddess. Gillian Brashear: Yeah, I look forward to it. Debra Wilson: Here's to the next now with us, yes? Gillian Brashear: Yeah, absolutely. Debra Wilson: Yes. Gillian Brashear: Randall. Randall Ryan: Sure. Gillian Brashear: All right. (laughs) Randall Ryan: (laughs) Like you do. Gillian Brashear: All right. Randall Ryan: Debra. Thank you as always. Debra Wilson: My pleasure. Randall Ryan: Thank you for doing this. And we need to do this again. And we might even need to do it again while we're not recording.   Debra Wilson: (chuckles)   Randall Ryan: And there you have it. The force of nature, that is Debra Wilson. Let's talk Voiceover is hosted by Gillian Brashear: actor, director, visionary.  And me, Randall Ryan: owner of HamsterBall Studios, delivering the world's best talent, virtually…anywhere. And we also can both be found at www.thevoicedirector.world. If you got comments or questions, or just want to let us know what you think, reach out at info@letstalkvoiceover.com.  You can find us at all of your favorite places to get podcasts: iTunes, Stitcher, Apple podcast, Podbean. If they have podcasts, chances are we're there. Thanks for listening. And Let's Talk Voiceover again, real soon.

Mark is one of the most well-known and credited video game directors in the world, casting and directing actors in titles such as Warhammer, Tropico, Wallace & Gromit, Need for Speed, and so many more.  He's been at the forefront of the creation of the industry. and he's still a bit of a mad scientist: creating, tweaking, and pushing the technology envelope.  He has his own definite style and a deep love of the craft of acting.  We got to have a rare in-person interview with him, where he put us in separate booths so we could experience "the lab" that is his London studio OMUK.  This is what came out! Randall Ryan: You want to do a sync clap? Just like one, two, three? It'll just make it easier for me to sync the three feeds. Gillian Brashear: All at the same time? Mark Estdale: Yeah. You're recording now. Do it now. Randall Ryan: Let's do it now. Gillian Brashear: Okay. Mark Estdale: Okay. Randall Ryan: All right, here we go. Three, two, one. Way to go, Mark. You didn't clap. Mark Estdale: Oh, you want me to clap as well? Randall Ryan: Yeah, all three of us. Mark Estdale: Okay. Randall Ryan: Three, two, one. Perfect. Close enough. Mark Estdale: Ish. Gillian Brashear: Nice. Randall Ryan: It's ish, it's ish, yeah. Gillian Brashear: Right. We're ready to roll here. THEME MUSIC Randall Ryan: Mark Estdale is one of the more fascinating personalities in our industry. Over 25 years, he's directed more than 140 video game titles, including some very well-known franchises, Warhammer, Tropico, Need for Speed, Wallace & Gromit, The Witcher, and Tales of Monkey Island. He's an innovator who really pushes the technology envelope when it comes to casting and recording. Gillian and I had a rare in-person conversation with him at his London studio, OMUK, which he refers to as the Petri dish. Gillian Brashear: Mark Estdale, let's talk voiceover. Mark Estdale: Let's do that. Gillian Brashear: Yeah. Mark Estdale: And you're in the lab. Randall Ryan: We are in the lab. Mark Estdale: Yeah. Gillian Brashear: It's a bit of a mad lab. Mark Estdale: It is a mad lab. Randall Ryan: Mark, when did we first meet? Do you even remember? Mark Estdale: Fuck knows. I have no idea. It's a few years ago anyhow, so. Randall Ryan: Interesting conversation that you and I were having just a minute ago about how you got into this because ... Mark, hey, look at the guitars. Are you a musician? Mark Estdale: No. I play for myself. It's a meditation. I ended up messing around with music, which, fundamentally, has to do with being with people and doing interesting creative stuff. I think musicians have, people have a degree of competence and can produce music. I doodle and from doodling sounds happen. Connecting those sounds is another art form. I doodled all my life. And I went to run a studio for a record company and I brought my doodle tapes. I would get my mates into the studio. We would just experiment with stuff. It was the beginning of digital. The only music I was working with was experimental industrial stuff in the '70s and early '80s. And you were going out recording foundries and factories and noises. And then making tape loops and running tape loops in the studio and experimenting with all that kind of stuff. Mark Estdale: So the art of replacing sounds with other sounds was about cutting tape and doing all that kind of stuff. So, my deal was the studio. They paid me fuck all. When I wasn't in session, I had free rein of the studio to do what I wanted. So I just record staff and have friends around and some of the musicians, we'd just experiment with things. So I basically transitioned to another studio with my tapes. The owner of the record company went, I want to give you a deal. And I went, great. And then, suddenly, it became work. And all the pleasure went out of it. And I went blind in the sense of there's no way I can mix my own stuff. I can't direct myself as an actor. So I'm on a journey as an actor right now. So I'm doing training right now. Mark Estdale: But yeah, we did a single and it was great. Let's have the album. And it was just like nah, nah. It's too much light work and it doesn't come from the heart and out of the weirdness of it, but I'm still planning. So I've been building instruments and I bought interesting drums and things and just things that just got weird sounds. But the world has changed dramatically since my skill as an editor was with a razor blade. Randall Ryan: Razor blade, right. Mark Estdale: And then when digital came in, I got really into that early ... We were mastering to Betamax and things like that back in the- Gillian Brashear: Right. Randall Ryan: Yeah. Mark Estdale: That was in the, I think that was the early '80s when that all came in. Then, my journey took me away from that. But I got into the whole music stuff that it was just farting about, trying to break things, trying to do things that were interesting. You wouldn't call it music per se. Randall Ryan: But the thing is that you produced. You produced albums, you produced singles, you produced bands. Mark Estdale: Yeah. Randall Ryan: Well, I mean you did. And so- Mark Estdale: Yeah. Randall Ryan: I've talked about this before. Actually, one time, you and I were at Buca di Beppo in- Mark Estdale: What? What is that? Where is that? Randall Ryan: Well, it's this little place where they can ... Yeah. Mark Estdale: Somewhere in LA. Randall Ryan: D.B. Cooper had organized something. Mark Estdale: Oh yeah, that'll be in, yeah, that'd be in San Francisco. Randall Ryan: Yeah, so it was in San Francisco, right. You and I were talking about this at Buca di Beppo, which is the first time I knew you had anything to do with music. And you were talking about the band that you did and just how you were taking all these electronic pieces and parts and stuff and putting them together. And I just remember listening to that going, this guy's a producer. And that's probably, I'm guessing, somehow how you got to doing what you're doing now. Mark Estdale: Yeah. Well, the thing is I came from performance originally. So, one of the things I got into was acting, but it wasn't really starting as acting. I was just a bored teenager on the street with a mate. We'd used to sit and watch people, then mimic people. The game we played was copy somebody and see how close you could get to them and copying all their mannerisms, just walking down the street. And it was just hilarious. We got more and more outrageous, making it bigger and bigger. And we would gather an audience. People would see us doing it than just stop and watch. And the person we were mimicking was completely unaware of it. Randall Ryan: That was going to be my question. Like, people started to come up going, do me? Mark Estdale: No, no, no, no. It was just us and about. But we had so much fun doing it and it was a real buzz from it. I was 15 at the time. And then, yeah, we started doing a bit of sketch stuff and I just loved it and I thought I really wanted to be an actor, but I'm deeply dyslexic. I got thrown out of school at seven. And it's a long brutal history that goes behind that. And one thing about acting was learning words and scripts. And I just, I can't do that. Gillian Brashear: Are you able to learn and memorize without reading it? Like just listening and memorizing? Mark Estdale: Nah. Gillian Brashear: No. Interesting. Mark Estdale: Nah, I can't even memorize what's in my own head. I'm an endless note-taker now. So I think on paper and on screens. But I love words. Being dyslexic gives me a, I think, a massive advantage in doing what I'm doing. Because in the studio I've learned that playing dumb is the blessed place to be. It's proven to be in a sense. I also get ill where I can't talk. Gillian Brashear: Really? Mark Estdale: Yeah. I can't remember the name of the disease. But essentially, if I talk I get stomach acid in my lungs, which would destroy my lungs. Gillian Brashear: And so then physically, the ability to talk, it's shut down or you just- Mark Estdale: Yeah. So it becomes ... I get into a state of uncontrolled coughing because, basically, your stomach acid is eating in your lungs. Gillian Brashear: My gosh. Mark Estdale: So it's potentially a very, very dangerous disease, but it's just a tiny thing. So, if it starts, I start coughing, that agitates it, and it gets into a loop. So, fundamentally, I can't talk. So, when I first got ill, I was in the studio and I had to communicate completely nonverbally. So that was a really interesting learning space too, because it was all about body language and communication. And the studio was set up like a regular studio where the engineer is in the main position and the director is at the back or somewhere else. I prefer to be in the booth with the actor if I could, but I'm far too noisy. So the glass is a necessity. But then I realized having this level of intimacy where it's between you and I, and it's about that trusting relationship. And one of the things about not being able to speak is then to be able to communicate ... I became Silent Bob. All hand gestures, things gestures, but it became a really intimate way of directing. And just the performances that were coming out were just great. Mark Estdale: And I just thought, okay, director, shut up. And in the studio, it's that whole sense of you want the performer to perform. We speak 9,000 words an hour. And sometimes, especially when you're doing the advertising stuff, you'll have a team of people just chatting away in the control room. The actor's doing nothing. Or then the director is talking, talking, talking. You're actually paying the actor the most to do the performing. And the ratio between performance and chatter, there's a tendency to be more talk here than in there. And just from the fact of being ill, observing that process and going, okay, this is liberating the actor in certain ways. That was interesting. Gillian Brashear: That is interesting. Mark Estdale: I've learned to just ask those straight questions. So rather than directing somebody, being in control, doing all that background work, it's been in the moment and going, I don't understand this. So we work in the studio exactly like we are here now. We're all talking to each other. And what I do is have the writer in. I'll have currently those people on Zoom, which is horrible. But generally, there's a group of people here and the whole idea, this is a collaborative process. So there is no talkback button. It is always open. So you are coming into the studio space to do your part, but we're working as a team. And it's exploring together. Mark Estdale: So, my default for directing is not talking to the actor, it's talking with the writer or questioning the script in an esoterical way or just going, I don't really understand this. What do you think? I go, what do you think, and joining into a conversation and letting the actor take from what is being said what they think is necessary. It's a non-pressure thing. But actually playing the dumb guy in the space, to ask the stupid questions is the liberator. Gillian Brashear: It allows the space for things to happen. Mark Estdale: And I think that was the thing when you mentioned earlier about record production and all that kind of stuff. It never came to where I wish I was doing it now because I know so much more. But the one thing I really noticed was having the studio as a liberating space was the most important factor of getting a great performance. Like bands in rehearsal rooms, in their own space, can produce magic and be fluid. Come into a studio, that's that level of stress. Then you'll say, recording, that's another level of stress. So, I looked at everything down the line, which actually liberated that space, that stress. So for instance, the space here is a living room. Randall Ryan: Basically, yeah. Mark Estdale: It's a den. It's somewhere to come and feel at home and you want to relax in, you want to hang out in it to feel safe. It's breaking down those barriers. So for instance, the recording engineer is working like recorders on film set. They're out of sight. It's all about the action. It's all about living in the fluid space, without words into the moment of the game. They're absolutely in the game. It's about immersing them in the game. Gillian Brashear: What do you mean by that? That you're immersing them in the moment of the game. How do you do that? Mark Estdale: The one thing that you need to be connected to is the game. I always think artwork is a corpse, animation is a zombie.  An actor embodying the zombie, bringing it to life, is a fully realized character. So, all of those elements are really powerful. So with the game developers, say, they've been working on a game for five years. If you've not cast early, you are dealing with a team of people who have got a voice in their head. And every single person will have a different voice in their head. Randall Ryan: Yep, absolutely. Gillian Brashear: Mm-hmm. Mark Estdale: So you're competing against that. Randall Ryan: Absolutely. Mark Estdale: Well, the phrase that's used always is, fuck yeah. Casting is about fuck yeah. Randall Ryan: Yeah. Mark Estdale: It's just like, yes, that character is fully alive within the orchestra of the ensemble. And if you cast early and the developer's going, fuck yeah, there is no doubt whatsoever about the character. There is clarity at that point. And then you can move that character in different directions. You may even want to recast it because it doesn't quite work within the context of the world. But what you have is a united vision, early, and that is so powerful because it influences the nuance of the writing. It influences the nuance of the animation. Every element is feeding each other. And by the time you come to record, you are already well ahead. And we want the actor engaged in that process, within those discussions that we have with the developer, so they're part of that process of developing a character. Randall Ryan: So, because the culture is so strong for casting late, doing all the VO late in the development of the game ... Mark Estdale: Yeah. Randall Ryan: ... how do you get people to buy on to, hey, we need to do this now. Scripts aren't even written a lot of times. Mark Estdale: Yeah, they don't. We don't need them to be written. Randall Ryan: You still buck up against the culture. Mark Estdale: We are the culture. Those ideas are the seeds. You are bringing in a master of character in an actor, somebody who knows how to interpret and to bring that character to life. You're bringing that level of craft and expertise into the team to weave magic within that team. You need to just talk about it like this and people go, oh yeah. Randall Ryan: Right. Mark Estdale: Yeah. But that's the way we roll.  The sausage factory of just churning it out at the end..hey, that is an opportunity to do magic beyond. So if we're working on a big plan, they're just throwing everything to the universe, and I'm working with an indie with no money. We can so outperform, outclass with so little. Randall Ryan: Absolutely. Mark Estdale: Simply because of the depth of engagement. And that depth of engagement costs bugger all. But it's a human engagement in a process and it's a creative journey you're embarking together. It makes a profound difference. Gillian Brashear: Absolutely. And it makes use of what actors do and have early in a process. It makes so much sense now listening to you ... Mark Estdale: Yeah. Gillian Brashear: ... that for the writers to be able to hear the words while they're still in the process of making it all, but actually hearing a character must inform the writing aspect in such a more rich way. Mark Estdale: Yeah. We look at games that we've worked on that are ongoing franchises, which is a really good example is a game called Vermintide, which is a Warhammer game. And there are a bunch of player characters. And it's all about the interactions between those player characters. As soon as the actors came on board, the characters became fully alive. And over the years, each time we record, the actors bring feeds, the writing feeds, everything else, and feeds the humor and the humanity of everything. The way the dialogue works is really interesting as well, because it's not just straight dialogue, you're using buckets. So, conversations are actually built up. Randall Ryan: So you're randomizing some of the responses? Mark Estdale: Yeah. But the way that the whole system here works is the actors are always working with each other in the booth, in that random space. We're not ensembling it because ensemble won't work in the situation. But they're always working off each other and adjusting, and everything becomes this fluid movement. So, the cast is now mature. The game is now six years on. But the writing has become funnier and funnier and more nuanced. Randall Ryan: So are you doing playback? Here's just some random playback for you to respond to. Mark Estdale: Yeah. There's a thing called CDT. There's creative dialogue tools. And fundamentally, what creative dialogue tools does is connect any game asset to the script. So for instance, you've got this script in front of you. You can see here. So, you've got this bit of dialogue. And whatever's going on, it can be video, so you've got character scene, item video. So, anything visual is there. I don't need to explain that conversation to you. You know where you are. We also got the voices of the actors. Source that if it's another language. Spot effects, those are just things that may interrupt, like an explosion or a door slamming or a sonic interruption. Then you have ambience, which is the ambient noise of the thing. And then music. So all those layers are available instantly. So what the CDT does is connect all the potential game assets to the script, so the actors in the movement. So this one is just this scene here is you're in a bar. This is Randall. He's talking to Elaine. Gillian Brashear: Randall, you're talking to Elaine. Randall Ryan: Well. She was there. She bought me a drink. What are you going to do? Mark Estdale: So, you can just go in and act this straight away, but I've got the Randall line straight here. So you can go off, you're off. Gillian Brashear: I'm nervous since you're here. More like barracudas. Okay, good. ´Cause I don't. Mark Estdale: So she's straight into ... She knows the scene, you know the level, you know everything, you are utterly connected. Gillian Brashear: Yeah, this is fun. Mark Estdale: Exactly. And that is the response. You're entering the roller coaster. Gillian Brashear: Yeah. Mark Estdale: So the actors are coming in just going, they just make choices and run. Gillian Brashear: Yeah. Randall Ryan: Yeah. Mark Estdale: I was talking earlier to you about the neuroscience of this. This is where I'm super excited, but I can't really articulate much of it now. When I first started doing game stuff, one of the things I really noticed was you'd be really diligent and give actors the script in advance and they will study it- Randall Ryan: When you can. Mark Estdale: Yeah, when you can. Randall Ryan: Right. Mark Estdale: The actor will prepare and come in and do their thing with the context of the directors who knew the background work and got the choices and all that kind of stuff. But then if you gave the actor a side they'd never seen before and say, just go, oftentimes their very first read, it'd be just knock the ball out the park. And I was going, what is going on here? So I never ever give actors a script in advance. Never. It doesn't matter how intricate it is. There was this really profoundly personal dark journey a character had gone on. There's this monologue, long monologue. And I thought, this is one to give in advance, but I didn't. I decided not to. And he hit it in one take. And by the end of it, we were all in tears. And the actor didn't know what was coming. They didn't know what the next sentence was. They didn't know what they were going to expose about themselves. It was profound for us in the studio here. We just go, fuck yeah. Gillian Brashear: Mm-hmm. I think it's got something to do, when I listen to what you're saying, the element of discovery. Mark Estdale: Yeah. Gillian Brashear: And when the actor is allowed to discover in the moment, the reactions they're going to have are very fresh and real. They're not manipulated. Mark Estdale: When I first started experiencing this ability to just live in the moment, I was thinking about where in the real world does this kind of acting exist? In theater, it's within improv. Randall Ryan: It's improv, right, exactly. Mark Estdale: But an improv is part of devising, part of knowing… Gillian Brashear: Mm-hmm. Rules. Mark Estdale: Yeah. However, in the real world where that improvised space is happening is when somebody's working undercover. So if you've got a cop who's working undercover, they are acting, they're being somebody they're not. And they have to survive in the world and their life is at stake. So that is improv extreme. Somebody from MI6 came down to the studio and couldn't talk about anything. But then he said, I would take it, I would take ... Gillian Brashear: It was a silent session. Mark Estdale: But what he said to me, he said, this is what we do, but for fun. And he's like, I can't tell you anything, but I can take you on a journey. And an interesting journey unfolded after that. That thing about living in the moment, I was really curious about how can you cold-read a script? Because somebody working undercover is total improvisation. Randall Ryan: Absolutely. Mark Estdale: Improvised theater is improvisation. But having a script and reading it, how come that works cold? And I was really curious about that. Basically, our brain is so much faster than we think it is. The thinking, speaking part is a linear element that comes from insane complexity. But if you think of the connections in the brain that are happening and firing at all times, if those connections were a ball of Christmas tree lights, that ball of Christmas tree lights would be the size of the known universe. That is the complexity and the power and the speed of our brain. We're coordinating everything at any one time. So you're trusting our humanity. The choices we make are always instant. If you go out on a date, and you prepare things, you just fall over yourself. Randall Ryan: Yeah. Gillian Brashear: Mm-hmm. Mark Estdale: Yeah. But if you don't care and you relax and you yourself, you come out and it's enabling that to happen. There's a lot more depth to the neuroscience of it. One of the really exciting things that's happening in cognitive science is the merging of psychology, of neurology, of physiology in their language and understanding. The connection between that and what's happening in the scientific world about how the brain works is so exciting. And the thing is, actors have known the essence of that and have created their own language about how we function because they're questioning how we function. Mark Estdale: Anybody who studied acting or taught acting is looking about how do you become another character, how do we embody fully somebody we're not? And that's the essence of the heart of the craft of acting, but it's studying humanity from a creative point of view. Whereas the science, the cognitive world is thinking about exactly the same subject from a scientific point of view. And those two worlds are converging. Mark Estdale: Rizzolatti, the Italian neurophysicist discovered mirror neurons. And mirror neurons are those neurons that respond ... I think some 300 people or 3,000 people probably take me in a corner and beat me up for getting it wrong. But they are the things that ... They're our imagination. So if I tell you a story, you will have an emotional response as if that was real. Randall Ryan: Right. Mark Estdale: I remember when I was at the Game On thing in LA and I talked about my fingers being broken. Randall Ryan: Oh yeah. Right. Mark Estdale: And the whole audience went ACCK!, you know what I mean? We learn from other people's experience. Gillian Brashear: Absolutely. Mark Estdale: And that is why theater is so wonderful. Gillian Brashear: That's storytelling in itself. Mark Estdale: It's storytelling. Gillian Brashear: Yes. Mark Estdale: The whole art of storytelling. Gillian Brashear: Right. That's why we do it. It's our shared consciousness. Mark Estdale: Yeah. Gillian Brashear: We're learning from your experience. Mark Estdale: Now science is beginning to go, oh, there's all these connections. So you've got embodied cognition. You've got a thing called 4E cognition. We're not just a brain in a head. We're a brain in a body. It's that physical connection. So, you get embodied acting. Then you get transformative acting, which is taking a step further. If you look into the relational stuff that Uta Hagen talks about what is the relationship between you and an object or your environment, really important. But this 4E cognition is about the cognitive process is connected fully to the environment, not just to head, not just to body, but it is external as well as internal. So, it's to do with spaces and containers, and containers is the thing I'm really interested in. That's when the new studio lab is going to be built, is looking at that research into containers. Mark Estdale: I can talk about this for hours and just go, because it is really interesting. But the fundamental thing is it's about how to liberate somebody in that moment. For an actor coming into the space, it's about being. One of the things I advise in auditions. You can hear when somebody's crafted it and reread something first. You can hear somebody living in the moment. You can hear when somebody's directed. You can hear when an actor is stuck in front of a microphone. It's a cage. I am caged. Because I keep moving off mic and you can hear it. That means it's a bad take. You will never give me a bad take. So when we're casting, what I recommend now is don't look at the sides, look at the character. Yeah, think about the context of who you are, what you are. Look at the context for the lines, not the lines themselves. Then cold read the lines, then press send. Without reviewing it, listening back or anything. If you fluff it, stop, start again. But keep that in and just give one take, send it. Gillian Brashear: I like it. I like that whole idea. Mark Estdale: Because it's about coming ... You're making a choice. So when I'm casting and having people in the studio, when somebody have made a decision, you have something tangible that you can flow with. And they've come in with a decision, you are throwing them into something and they're going with it. And then you can go, how about this? And they go, oh, different decision, let's go that direction. That's what I'm looking for in casting. That's all. Actors are coming to the booth wanting to please me. Randall Ryan: Right. Gillian Brashear: Right. Mark Estdale: And it's just dead. Gillian Brashear: Yes. Mark Estdale: It's never going to happen. And it's what I call licking. People want to lick you. It's like uh-uh, make a choice, run with it and let's play. They're entering a playground. They're being a child. And that is what training really gives people, that ability to play and to be safe and have confidence. We get actors bouncing into auditions and it's just like, okay, let's play. It's always a learning experience. And they're less invested in trying to please. And the more they're embedded in being the better chance they have. And the tough thing is, the actors who are really experienced know that. But that's why we have these agent sessions, where the agent comes and sits in here and we'll discuss everything and do the same thing as if I'm directing a session, open mic, just mess around. Here's a scene. I go through these scenes here with the actor, throw them about and introduce them to it. And this is basically what I call a no-risk session. So, we have a very strict score system. Four is on the knows. Zero is what the fuck. So, fuck yeah to what the fuck. Yeah. Randall Ryan: So one is I don't give a fuck. Two is ... Mark Estdale: You could give a fuck. Randall Ryan: Could give a fuck. Three is fucking pretty good. Mark Estdale: Yeah. Gillian Brashear: The four levels. Mark Estdale: Yeah, we could have the fuck scale. Yeah, we haven't thought of that. But I think, we actually do do that, having the fuck scale. The Randall Ryan fuck scale, that's what we're going to call it. Gillian Brashear: Four levels of fuckery. Mark Estdale: Yeah, exactly. So, we'll zone people. Randall Ryan: Right. Mark Estdale: To start with. So it won't go into refined. This will be a three, four or a two, three or a one, two, or a zero, one on their first take. That to me is meaningless. Because what happens, you are dropping somebody into the playground for the first time and they're going, do I like this, do I want this, do I embrace this? Then they go away and they think about it. And if they want to come back, they'll be a different person. Randall Ryan: So when you're casting with this, when you're doing things like that, is that either you're already thinking about casting them and so these are like call back auditions, because you probably can't do that with everybody, right, unless you have a really small number of people that you're calling from. Mark Estdale: We get people to self-take. The casting side's really important. Randall Ryan: Right. Of course. Mark Estdale: Because that score system exists. We have a thing called the casting matrix. I think I can bring up a matrix for you, which is terrifying because it's another sheet. Yeah, Google Sheets is wonderful as well. Randall Ryan: Do you realize this visual stuff is great for a podcast? Mark Estdale: Yeah, that's perfect for a podcast. But it's fundamentally. So this is a casting sheet. This is sanitized so you don't see all the actors on it. Fundamentally, get their scores. Our casting briefs are really precise. And within it, there is a description of how to submit, what to submit. So we'll say things like don't slate your sample. So if an actor slates the sample, they don't get listened so they go straight to the bin. Randall Ryan: I've told so many people that exact thing. Thank you for saying that. Mark Estdale: Well, the thing is if somebody can't follow instructions when they want a job, how the fuck are they going to listen when they're on their job? Randall Ryan: 100% agree. Gillian Brashear: Mm-hmm. Mark Estdale: So there are details within the casting submission, which adhere to or be damned. And the other thing is, so the way we look at the casting is each actor, if they're going to submit for multiple roles, their best score is going to be the average. So if they submit for one role and nail it, they've got top score. Randall Ryan: Yeah. Mark Estdale: Yeah. We've got some down here that submitted for a couple of roles. They've nailed one, but they submitted for three, and they're off the scale down here. They were four for one role, but they wouldn't be considered for that role or they wouldn't be the top choices for that role because their average was lower. And the reason we do this is, one, it's about self-awareness. It's also about production awareness. So when you submit, it takes at least 20 minutes to listen through to a sample. And oftentimes, when we're in casting, three people will listen to that sample and make notes. That takes time. Yeah. If you're carpet-bombing want to be hopeful and you'll say, oh, I'll go for this one and go, you are wasting our time. You may be brilliant and be able to nail them all, but get through your door on one is all you need to do because we can play once you're in production. Randall Ryan: Okay. So let me give you a little devil's advocate on that. Mark Estdale: Yeah. Randall Ryan: So, unless you are doing one-to-one casting, one actor, one part, one part, one actor, even if you're submitting for roles that maybe you don't get, if you're submitting for something that you have no business submitting for, that's a faux pas. But you submit for that one role that, as you said, you nail. And then maybe you submit for a couple others, like they're okay, they're average, they would work if we had to work with them. Isn't there something positive to that if you are having to say, they're going to get that main role of rows, this actor is just perfect for rows? I can give them two other roles. I can give them an NPC. I can give them maid number eight. Mark Estdale: That's my decision, not yours. It's a production decision. So this is about getting through the door. You do a self-submission, submit your best. Because then, if we don't know you, we'll call you in and then we'll mess with you. We'll send you on a roller coaster. So we'll play around with that character because we want to see about adjustment. The self-tape tells you nothing. Some self-tapes, whether that actor can really do it, especially if it's somebody you don't know, it may have taken hours of crafting and all that kind of stuff. So, it's saying, yeah, this works, but I want to see it work under production conditions. If we don't know the actor, then we'll bring them into the studio, put them into production conditions. And during that exploration, we will explore other characters. Randall Ryan: Well, this is something you can do because of what you said, where you are getting casting done early. That gives you that luxury of that. Mark Estdale: But it's always pushing that casting time. Having casting time is ... Casting is king, is everything. Randall Ryan: Yeah, it is. Mark Estdale: We cast wide all the time. So, probably the casting backlog is about thousand actors right now within productions. We've got all these samples. So, Zach here and Nat are going through those building the database. So which is the matrix here, which is scored. So every sample gets a score. And the average score is the actor's in through the door score. So if they come in, they cast, they go, that is the role I want. If the actor is undecided because they're so brilliant, just come to make one choice. That is the message. Make a choice. Because if it's good, we will call you back for other stuff anyhow, even if you don't get the role. Mark Estdale: So this is statistics. And this also gives us statistics about the agent and every statistic tells a story. So, the average score from the actors then becomes the average scores to the agents. So we basically expect agents to do a lot of the work for us. So we will send the briefs to the agent. And if the agent is really hot, they know their talent, and they go, he'll be good for this role. Or she'll be great for this one. And they will send specific actors. Randall Ryan: And they don't give you 10 to show that they've got a bunch, which happens a lot. Mark Estdale: Yeah. So some of our agents will just send us three samples. Randall Ryan: Right. Mark Estdale: And they all go bang, bang, bang. They're in the bag. Oh, nice agent, good, saved us time. And others will get all the briefs come in. They just put it onto their website for any actor to put in whatever they want. And they just pipe it all to us and we'll get 100 submissions. Randall Ryan: Absolutely. Mark Estdale: Do we want to work with that agent? Do you know the production cost of dealing with that and waiting through that? And some of those samples will be shocking. So having the agents in here for these agent sessions, we talk about this thing. And so we are evaluating the agent as well as the actor. And if we get carpet-bombed, okay, they don't understand production and they're not putting their best foot forward. They're just being hopeful or hoping something will stick in there. And that ain't good practice. We don't want to work with those agents who carpet-bomb because it is wasting our time. It's making them look really crap. The data tells a story. So we know when an agent's carpet-bombing and there's no filtering. Randall Ryan: Do you try to train the agent at all? Mark Estdale: Yeah. That's why we invite the agents down. So we've got two sessions this week with different agents. They're coming down from different agencies. So oftentimes, agents don't get to really know their crew, the actors. There's hundreds of actors on the book. And it's a real opportunity for the agent to get to know the talent, which they wouldn't normally get within the normal working day. And it's about us educating the agent, educating the actors. And that is the fundamental thing. And we find gems in doing that. So we have a massive database. Every single casting that comes through here goes onto a database. We have all the score and their average score over everything, and the notes. Every sample that comes in is an asset for the database. So there's tens of thousands of the data thing. Gillian Brashear: My gosh, it's incredible that you have time. Mark Estdale: But it means it's all at the fingertips. Gillian Brashear: Yeah. Mark Estdale: So for on a production side, you want that sense of know who you are as an actor. Put your best foot forward, what you think you're great for. Randall Ryan: Okay. So let me ask you something else then. Mark Estdale: Go on. Randall Ryan: So, let's just say you're precasting for a game. You've got a main role for something. And an actor submits for that. And they give you two different submissions for it that are radically different from one another. But they're making choices like here's one way I could play it, here's something else I could see. Or maybe the first one is, here's something that is absolutely in spec based on the brief. I have an idea on something else and I just want you to hear it. I mean, that's their thinking. They may not say that in the audition because they're just going to give you a couple of things. In your world, is that a positive, is that a detriment, could it be either? Mark Estdale: In my world, I would say it's a detriment. Randall Ryan: Reason being? Mark Estdale: Make a choice. Randall Ryan: What if they have, they've made two choices? Mark Estdale: They made two choices. Choose between one of them. Run with it. Yeah. What's your gut feel? Sometimes, they may want to go off the brief, fine. It is about conviction. Conviction carries. Randall Ryan: Okay. So if what they're doing is they're giving you one on the brief, even if they nail it, but the reason they give you the second one is because this is a little bit off the brief but this is what I feel. You would probably say, if you were the actor, give me the second one, don't give me the first, correct? That's the dilemma. Mark Estdale: It's not a dilemma. It's just make a choice and run with it. Because once you start building an ensemble, we want the brief to be precise. What actors submit expose a brief. Because if actors are submitting wild shit, we've got something wrong with the brief. But with the brief, yes, there are choices to be made. And you could go in different directions. And some actors will give me five variations, all of them wonderful. But again, that takes five times the time. Randall Ryan: It does. Mark Estdale: To do it, to review it. Randall Ryan: Unless you hear one and you're like, I don't care what else they did, that's it? Mark Estdale: Yeah. We would never make that decision. So, a self-submission is that's interesting. All you need to do is pique my interest. Because the next stage is getting them in the booth and working with them. And then that is where the discussion opens up. It's just clarity of choice. It doesn't have to be to the brief. It can be, I've got this idea, I think this will be this and give it. Because what you see is choice momentum, life in the performance, it's there. And when something is fully alive and realized and vibrant that you go, that's interesting, I want to go that way. What I'm looking for is talent to work with. As we said earlier, there's 26 productions live right now. It's not just that one role we are casting for. We are casting all the time. And if somebody's showing stuff that's interesting, that interesting gets flagged. It's part of the pool for all the productions. They may not be good for that role, but they'd be great for this one. Randall Ryan: Right. And that happens? Mark Estdale: Yeah, all the time. People will submit stuff and you go, ah, that's such a great performance, but it's just not right. And it's not just about the performance. You're building an orchestra. It's all about the group of actors. It's the ensemble that is what makes a piece work. And you want different tones and textures, pictures. You want color. It's like an orchestra. If an orchestra was all fucking violins, it'd be dead. Gillian Brashear: Right. Randall Ryan: Right. Mark Estdale: It doesn't matter how virtuoso you are. You're looking for different instruments to give you the thing. So casting is not about the brilliance of your performance for that one thing. It's about that performance in relationship to everything else. But a great performance will always be noted. And it'll go into that resource for the casting team. Randall Ryan: So a technical question then on the way that you're doing your thing. Mark Estdale: Go on. Randall Ryan: Somebody gives a great performance, but it's not what you're looking for on that brief. They are possibly going to be scored something like a two. Mark Estdale: But if it's a great performance, it wouldn't get a two. Randall Ryan: Okay. So even it's like, they're not going to get this role, you're still essentially saying, by your scoring system, they got a three. Because even though it was a great performance, it's not what you're looking for in that role. Is that not how that would work? Mark Estdale: Yeah. But three's good. They can nail it. Randall Ryan: I see. Gillian Brashear: You bring them in? Mark Estdale: I would bring them in and work them. Gillian Brashear: How do you deal with people across the ocean? Mark Estdale: We don't do any remote recording. Gillian Brashear: Interesting. Mark Estdale: Because it's all about this. Gillian Brashear: Yeah. So people have to come here and record. Mark Estdale: Yeah. Gillian Brashear: For any of your jobs. Wow. Mark Estdale: Yeah. Gillian Brashear: Okay. Mark Estdale: Yeah. We won't remote ... Well, the thing is if it's one voice in something, then fine. I did one production in lockdown with actors all over the world. We were shipping out the same equipment to everybody. But the most expensive thing about a recording studio is the room you sit in. Gillian Brashear: Yeah. Randall Ryan: That's right. Mark Estdale: And ... Gillian Brashear: That's the toughest. Mark Estdale: ... basically, people in their cupboards, under duvets, whatever, will sound different. And the thing is, you've got a disconnect. The actors are dealing with the technical as well as performance. Some actors are massively technical. Some of the best ones don't know what the internet is. Randall Ryan: That is correct. Mark Estdale: So the technical side of it, it's always a compromise, it's always a loss, it's always a degradation of what you can do. So we've made that in June last year. That's the way we roll. And we started mid-June, July last year back into full production. Gillian Brashear: Do people fly over for you? Mark Estdale: For doing stuff from the States? Gillian Brashear: Yeah. Mark Estdale: There's so many Americans over here now. Gillian Brashear: Okay. Mark Estdale: Now that was one of the thing is like 50% of our productions are US. And we are looking for studios to work with in the States right now. But we want to be able to plug them into our way of working. Gillian Brashear: You might have to go back and rebuild that studio again! Mark Estdale: Well, yeah, it still exists. Now, I'm not going to go and do that. We want to do it in a partnership thing. Gillian Brashear: So you're looking for a partner over there who can do something with the same type of setup and have the same relationship. Mark Estdale: But it's having a really great room to be able to do this. This is fundamentally my playground. And the research element of it I'm doing. You are sitting in the Petri Dish. Everything you do is noted. And so, why does that work, why does ... I've done this for decades. And you notice patterns and you see things and you're going, okay, I'm going to change this and I want to be able to take that further. Now I'm understanding more of the science. The science has caught up with the acting. So the dialogue is now current and live between the cognitive sciences and performance. And it is the most exciting. There's three great books on the subject. The one that really got me is a guy called Dick McCaw. He did a book called Training the Actor's Body. Originally, I thought the most important element in performance is one of the things I watch in casting is the physicality. So, how an actor physically enters a character. You can't do it with a 416 in front of you or a U87. Randall Ryan: Well, you can but- Mark Estdale: You can but you are caged. You're in a cage. Gillian Brashear: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. You're doing this and working with them. Mark Estdale: Yeah, yeah. You can do it wonderfully, animation there. The common practice is to do it in a cage. Randall Ryan: Right, right. Mark Estdale: But when you release the beast, holy fuck, you get something different. Randall Ryan: So another technical question. This mic, small capsule. Mark Estdale: Yeah. Randall Ryan: How are you getting the depth? Mark Estdale: Okay. So, it's a 4060, it's a DPA. Randall Ryan: Okay. But what's the technology that makes this give that bottom menu and all that stuff that's around 180 hertz that sometimes you're rolling off, but if it's not there and those harmonics aren't there, you lose that. Mark Estdale: You are listening to a voice. For me, performance is a voice in an environment. So, what we want is something that's natural and neutral. That is the focus. Every mic colors. Randall Ryan: Absolutely. Mark Estdale: And you want a constant coloration. So, there's a distance, the way the mic is placed and everything. We've researched this forever. And it's like working that mic where it is, is like working at U87 at a meter. But you need a good room for it. That's another side of it. And- Randall Ryan: So its polar pattern is a little more omni? Mark Estdale: Yeah, they're omnis. So, I want a really natural sound to it. And the other thing is the more performance capture you're doing, you've got mics attached to people. Yeah. And they're using these mics on the stage. So the performance capture stage we're building is going to be just a very big sound studio. But it's going to be one that's going to have controllable acoustics because I want to put orchestras in there as well. But it's having that playground because when their new studio comes, to be able to connect all the different rooms in the different environments, that means we could do some really crazy shit. And the crazy shit is something that tickles me. Randall Ryan: You realize you can't die because you've got a good 50 years' worth of ideas here. Mark Estdale: Oh God, yeah. I know I can't die. Gillian Brashear: I got to say ... Mark Estdale: But it's ... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Gillian Brashear: Your spirit of experimentation, I applaud. That you're constantly curious and experimenting to get to a more refined connection and truth. I really appreciate that. Mark Estdale: I guess so. Gillian Brashear: Yeah, yeah. Mark Estdale: Yeah, so it's ... Yeah. You only have one life. Gillian Brashear: Mm-hmm. Mark Estdale: And it's like, if we don't enjoy our craft and what we do and can't be supportive in each other's shit, what the fuck's the point? Randall Ryan: I'm kind of with you. Gillian Brashear: I agree. I agree with you fully. Randall? Randall Ryan: Gillian? Gillian Brashear: All right. Randall Ryan: Sure. Gillian Brashear: Thank you so much, Mark. Mark Estdale: Thank you for being here. Gillian Brashear: Mark Estdale, it's fantastic. Mark Estdale: Thank you. It's lovely to have you in our day in the Petri dish. Gillian Brashear: Oh, my gosh. Randall Ryan: I already feel a little more moldy. My cells are dividing as we speak. I don't know. Maybe someone can pull Mark out of his shell someday, right? I really enjoy hearing his perspective and it's a joy to feel the passion that he's got for creativity and really just for our industry. Let's Talk Voiceover is hosted by Gillian Brashear, actor, director, visionary, and me, Randall Ryan, owner of HamsterBall Studios, delivering the world's best talent virtually anywhere. And I can also be found at thevoicedirector.world. You got comments, questions, or just want to let us know what you think, reach out at info@letstalkvoiceover.com. Find us at all your favorite places, GetPodcast, iTunes, Stitcher, Apple Podcast, Podbean. If there are podcasts, we're probably there. Thanks for listening, and we'll talk again real soon.  

LTVO has a new host! An actor and director with production chops, Gillian came from the stages of New York City to the big (Chekhov and Maria) and small screens (CSI: Cyber, Criminal Minds, Legends) in Los Angeles before delving into voice acting, and then directing.  She also narrated the Emmy-winning series Wonder Women.  Her vo credits include Leisure Suit Larry: Reloaded, Lord of the Rings Online, Chivalry 2, Vacation Simulator, and World of Tanks.  Smart, curious, glib and with a wicked wit; she's the perfect person to sit in the virtual cocktail bar and converse with anyone in the industry.  So, welcome, and Let's Talk Voiceover, Gillian Brashear! Gillian Brashear: When I was in New York, there was, oh darn it, a show that it was all about the nudity, but I was seeing it probably 20 years past its prime.  So, I was this acting student…   Randall Ryan: Like Emmanuel? Gillian Brashear: No, it wasn't that, I…OH! (laughs)  I see…is it Oh Calcutta?  But no, it's not that.   Randall Ryan: No that was, wasn't it?   Gillian Brashear: It is Oh Calcutta?   Randall Ryan: Yes, as soon as you said it, it’s like yes   Gillian Brashear: it was still going in New York.  It was…you know, when you go to the strip bars like we do and ther're tired gals, they've done it a lot, it was a bit like that.  Like yeah I'm naked, I'm on stage. Meh (laughs) It just was such a bizarre experience in New York going, okay,well uh, yep, that's a job, I… I guess that's acting.  I don't know!   THEME MUSIC   Randall Ryan Let's talk so Let's Talk Voiceover, Gillian Brashear.   Gillian Brashear: (laughs) Okay let's do it.   Randall Ryan Welcome to this thing that we do called Let's Talk Voiceover, and thanks for doing this, and thanks for wanting to get in and do this. So, I'm curious because even though we talked about it and it's like, would you like to do this thing and you're like, I'd love to do this thing. We never talked about why. So why?   Gillian Brashear: Why do I want to do it?  Well, ultimately I like to play and you're a great play partner.   Randall Ryan: Yes!  you're already better than Brian!   Gillian Brashear: And I love learning about people. I'm excited to hear people's stories. I am excited to hear what they know and what they want to share and what they want to talk about, and actually, honestly, there are questions that I have for people that I've done their work, worked on their work, shall I sa,y on their files and what not that we've recorded and I've worked on, and I have things I want to know and that I want to ask them.   Randall Ryan: Right.  So you're talking like some of the people that you've worked with, the kind of things where you say, I don't know why she chose or he chose to do this, but that's really interesting?  Or are you talking more the techniques that they use to get a specific sound or specific delivery out?   Gillian Brashear: I think both.  You know, when I'm working on somebody's recording, I get into the world that they've created and I become very curious.  Sometimes it's I'm curious how did you come up with that as your portrayal? Sometimes it is literally, how do you make that sound with your voice?  ‘Cause I don't even understand how that comes out of anybody's human body. Yeah. And then sometimes I notice people have incredible technique and I'd like to know about that.  A lot of things.  Sometimes they just sound like they're really fun and I want to hang out with them for a while.  So this might be as close as I ever get.   Randall Ryan: You never know.  And the thing that's really interesting to me listening to the comments that you've said back to me about stuff, because again, you come at this from being an actor, and this may not be accurate, but in my head, you really come at it first from being stage actor and everything else kind of came 2nd 3rd, or is that accurate? Is that not accurate?   Gillian Brashear: Yep.  When I decided that I wanted to actually dive in and be an actor and admit that that was the passion that I had, I wanted to do it in the best way possible, or what that meant to me at the time was I wanted to learn in the place that I thought I would get the best skills and that would really challenge me to be the best that I could be, and for me that was New York stage.   Randall Ryan: So, you probably have told me this before, but I don't remember all the details if you did, because I know you went to drama school.    Gillian Brashear: Yeah.   Randall Ryan: Obviously, not everybody that comes into, at least the stuff that we talk about while they may have had an acting background or a singing background, not everybody has gone to drama school.  You went to acting school.  What led you to do that?   Gillian Brashear: Well, I had always had a passion for it.  I started acting just casually in the things that you do when you're a kid, and then I put it away to do other things: go to school, be a little crazy.  I ended up traveling to Australia and spending some time there and I think getting away from the United States and being in a different place, which was marvelous, for a very long period of time allowed me to look back at my life and really assess what it was that I wanted to do.  So away from the drive and ambition and the, the courses that were sort of served up as young people. You know, this is a path and this is a path and this is a path.  And there just came a point where I realized I this is what I want to do. So, I auditioned for acting school in New York.  I let that decision guide me. I was accepted and there I went.   Randall Ryan: That's really interesting.  This is a total sidebar: what things did you see differently leaving the United States?  And it may have absolutely nothing to do with acting, but just, how do you think that kind of just shaped you as a person and maybe lead you to make some different decisions?   Gillian Brashear: I can say that my time out of the United States has profoundly changed my outlook on life in a good way.  I went there, I had extreme culture shock and given that it's an English-speaking country that's saying a lot.  But I was.  I mean, I was kind of paralyzed for a while.  It took me easily six weeks just to be able to relax, and relax into the environment, and be able to relate to people on the pace that they have there.  But spending enough time there really allowed me to identify the fact that they actually, really they actually enjoy living life more.  They're really invested in enjoying their lives and not so much ambition-driven. Now this, frankly, is when I was there, and it's not that they weren't out doing stuff. There were people doing great things and having businesses and, and doing such, but it was the balance. It's that they had a healthy balance of enjoying their life and socializing and being extremely jovial while also doing the other things in life that you have to do.  And I think that's really my big takeaway.   Randall Ryan: So you think that allowed you in some way to say: yeah, acting.  Because, maybe because acting is not If you're going to get into it to make a lot of money, that's probably not, you know, your top 10 picks? Or some other reason?   Gillian Brashear: Well, again, I think I had a passion for it. I had a desire to do it from the time I was really young.  I mean, honestly, probably six years old, it was a thing for me, and something I got deep joy out of.  The act of pursuing it was very frightening, which is really why I didn't do it, and why I didn't go any farther with it for a really long time.  And at that point, while I was there in Australia, I could no longer deny the fact that, even though I was terrified to do it, I would never resolve the wanting unless I went ahead and tried.  And I just realized, I don't want to spend my life wishing I had done something.  So just go do it, and let the chips fall where they may. Randall Ryan: What was the terror for you?  I ask as a person who went out and did music the same way   Gillian Brashear: Uh, . putting yourself out there.  Really, honestly, it's throwing all the chips on yourself.  It's a big move.  It's bold.  I didn't grow up in a family of artists of really any kind, so there's no system of support for “hey, yeah, and I know this is what you do.”  I mean it wasn't like anybody was holding me back, but it was a pioneer move as far as any upbringing that I had.   Randall Ryan: Right.   Gillian Brashear: And New York is scary! Randall Ryan: Yeah, yeah.   Gillian Brashear: If you haven't been and you listen to all the stories about it, it seemed like a really big, scary place.  Now, it's actually one of my favorite places and I love it, and it doesn't scare me now. But you know, it's all the stuff you don't know, it's your fear of the unknown.  And it's also, you know, the fear of figuring out, can you really, do you really have what it takes to follow through on a dream.    Randall Ryan: Well in New York, while maybe differently than Australia, New York is culture shock. It's culture shock to people who live in the United States, and I would argue that New York is culture shock to people who even come from other big cities.   Gillian Brashear: Absolutely.    Randall Ryan: I love Chicago; Chicago is not New York and vice versa.  New York is its own thing. It's just absolutely its own place. And, sure there are some parallels, but they're just very…you know, L.A.  Those areyour big three cities in the United States and they're just drastically different from one another.   Gillian Brashear: Yes, they are.   Randall Ryan: So one of the things I'm really looking forward to with you doing this; really, I've worked with you in all stages.  I've worked with you as an actor. I've worked with you doing editing and mastering.  I've worked with you where you are directing and I’m fly on the wall with that.  I'm just really fascinated by how in some ways how lockstep we are with a lot of things, but how also very different we are with things. You will hear things and do things that I didn't hear, but that what you heard is correct. And you will do things that are not right or wrong compared to what I do, but they're different.  And sometimes quite frankly, a lot of the things that you have done, I think “Wow, that is different than how I would have done, and I think how you approach that is much better than I would approach that in that situation.”  So that's one of the things that for me I really want to hear, because you have a tremendous amount of insight and I learn from you, and I've watched how you've made me think differently.  So I think, when it comes to talking to somebody, your thought process with that person is a little bit different.  And I also think that there's a lot to be said for just you being a woman actor and how you just are going to have a different kind of sensitivity to stuff than then I certainly will.   Gillian Brashear: Great, thank you.  First, thank you for all of that. (laughs) Um, I think it comes down a lot too for me is that I am essentially a very curious person.  And, so even when I'm listening to somebody in a directing session, I become really curious about the lines and how they're saying it.  And somehow there's something to that, that if you're curious about something, a door opens and suddenly whatever direction needs to be said makes sense.  Does that, does that make sense? (laughs)   Randall Ryan: Yeah, of course, absolutely. It does.  You know, I think all of us are curious in some way.  It's just the angle of curiosity that I will often listen to you go down, or the way that you will talk to an actor and say “I have an idea.”  And I do that too, and other directors that I've seen who I admire do that, but everybody's got a different way of approaching it, and a different way to say it. And I also think again, you know, I look at somebody like you, like my friend Tom Keegan, where you both have an acting background, and sometimes you come up things very differently than say, like myself or Andrea Toyias, who come from a music background, and you also have that music background.  Which by the way, may I say, while I always knew it was there…   Just to tell a little story on Gillian.  There's this Austin singer-songwriter group that I've been in for, you know, 5, 6 years, and it's this really intense thing of, you get a prompt and you got one week to write a two-minute or more song.  Usually fully produced.  I mean, sometimes people don't fully produce them out, but all the people that are in the group, for a lot of them, this is what they do for a living.  So you have like these heavyweights in there, and you're just sticking your little old songs in there.  And I asked her if she wanted to do it, and she kind of said, oh sure.  And I thought, well, it'll be interesting to see if she makes it through the whole semester.  The very first song I heard of hers, I'm listening to her sing…you never told me you could sing like that!   Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Randall Ryan: And then we had some weeks where we were asked to collaborate, because that was just part of the the prompt, and we collaborate on a song.  And so now I'm giving her stuff that I would have sang, and I'm not a great singer, and I'm just listening to her bring this whole thing alive and like: why did you never tell me this?  Why did you never tell me that?  It's like you didn't even, you didn't even bother.  Like oh yeah, this thing I do. Sure. Yeah, it's it's this thing. I mean, you're a really, really solid singer.   Gillian Brashear: I…well, thank you again.  I can't say that that's something I really embody thinking about myself.  I go around singing, but it was a whole different thing to write something and then actually sing it and actually record it, and actually put it together.  I've never done that before.  And again, I found the process of being curious about it, curious about writing a song, curious about singing, curious about recording. It was fantastic. Yeah.   Randall Ryan: So what's your takeaway from that? Just for you personally.  Not for the process so much, because you made it all the way through. Gillian Brashear: Yeah.   Randall Ryan: What's your takeaway with that?   Gillian Brashear: My takeaway is I'd like to do more.   Randall Ryan: So what about it makes you want to do more?   Gillian Brashear: Well, the process itself was so invigorating, and opened up this whole new avenue about myself I didn't even know.  I really didn't know.  I know you say it sounds like I was hiding something from you, but I frankly didn't know, Plus the fact that   Randall Ryan: (laughs)   Gillian Brashear: (laughs) that I have these songs, I have these baby songs now.  And when I go back and listen to them I'm really happy about it.  I mean they're not perfect, but I love them!  And I would like more of that.    Randall Ryan: Right.   Gillian Brashear: I think anybody, everybody, even if you don't think you should do it, you should do it, because it's an amazing process.  And fun.   Randall Ryan: So relate it to acting.  What did it teach you about acting?   Gillian Brashear: I think it's that it allowed a creative process that you don't often get.  The issue with acting is that you need someone else to act.  You really do.  And it's hard to explore by yourself.  And this was a way to explore my creativity and my voice and words, and having words come out of me in some sort of a framework of a song.  It's a satisfaction that you get.  It resonates with the same satisfaction that you get as an actor, but it was a way to really let it bloom in a new way and in a new capacity that feeds acting, most certainly.  But just allowed for some…was like a sweet dessert.  Just yummy.   Randall Ryan: (laughs) I love that. And with that: thank you for doing this.  Really, really look forward to however long you and I are engaged in doing this.   Gillian Brashear: I'm looking forward, too.  It's going to be a good adventure and, well, I hope I don't embarrass you too much, but, maybe once or twice I will have to embarrass you. (laughs)   Randall Ryan: You know, that was never an issue for BT.  If he ever had the opportunity to, he would.  So what's new?   Gillian Brashear: Okay.  Game on! (laughs)   Randall Ryan: (laughs) And now we need to come up with a sign off.   Gillian Brashear: Okay. I could go “Alright.” (laughs)   Randall Ryan: That would actually be a fun little inside joke.   Gillian Brashear: (laughs) That would be funny.  Alright.   Randall Ryan: Sure.    Gillian Brashear: (laughs)   Randall Ryan: Oh sure.   Gillian Brashear: (laughs) Alright.   Randall Ryan: sure.   Gillian Brashear: Alright   Randall Ryan: sure.   Yeah, it's gonna be a fun ride.  Probably at my expense.  Let's Talk Voiceover is hosted by Gillian Brashear: actor, director, visionary.  And me, Randall Ryan, owner of Hamster Ball Studios, delivering the world's best talent, virtually anywhere.  And I can also be found at thevoicedirector.world.  Got comments, questions or just want to let us know what you think, reach out at info@letstalkvoiceover.com.  Find us at all your favorite places to get podcasts, iTunes, Stitcher, Podbean.  If there are podcasts, we’re probably there.  In the meantime, thank you for listening, and we'll talk again very soon.

Mara Junot is one of those fascinating people you meet that you instantly fall in love with.  Warm, genuine, and easy to talk to.  Funny, inviting, and personable.  And one hell of an actor.  Video games, such as Ikora in Destiny 2, Fortnite, World of Warcraft, Mortal Kombat, and Guild Wars 2.  She's also highly in demand as a narrative and promo actor: ESPN, CNBC, Lifetime, and others.  Oh, and a commercial actor, voicing spots for Target, AT&T, Walmart.  And then that strange and wonderful talent as a live announcer for VHI1 Divas, CNN New Year's Eve with Anderson Cooper...yeah.  She's got crazy chops. 

Chuck Campbell has been a working voice actor for a very long time. If you are in the voice acting business, you need to understand what Chuck already knows. It’s a business, first and foremost. For more than two decades, Chuck has been in front of the camera and behind the mic, including thousands of tv and radio commercials, training and corporate videos for Fortune 500 companies, 55 audio books, and the film, “Ides of March” with George Clooney, Ryan Gosling and host of other great actors. Not bad for a guy who took a chance and walked away from a steady paycheck 20 something years ago to invest in himself. So how do you keep a voice acting business thriving while keeping a 4 handicap? I want to know. Let’s Talk Voiceover, Chuck Campbell.

Sometimes you're having so much fun that a podcast pops out. That is what happened when we talked with Misty Lee. Misty is an awesome voice actor who is also an awesome magician. Yup. Really. As a lifelong performer, Misty talks honestly about the privilege of being a voice actor. And with a track record of success that includes Ultimate Spider-Man, Grand Theft Auto V, The Last of Us, Star Wars Battlefront, Disney Infinity, and more, Misty helps to remind us all how wonderful and magical this business really is. Invest your time to listen to Episode 33 and you'll walk away with a smile and incredibly valuable advice that's hard to find anywhere. 

Ever wonder what it would be like to hear from the writer who brings the words for our voices? Hall Hood is a narrative designer who specializes in creating immersive player-driven stories. His credits include games published by Electronic Arts, Sony Entertainment Corporation, and Disney. He has created stories and characters for the Star Wars, Dragon Age, and Mass Effect franchises, and also written for mobile games and console titles like Ghost of Tsushima for Playstation. In addition to his work as a writer, Hall mentors aspiring narrative designers, consults with production partners for Eko.com’s interactive video series, and provides expert support on other projects in development. Plus, he's really funny! Check out the podcast. 

Mark Oliver is a voice acting badass who does what he does in film, animation, and videogames. From Wood Man in the Mega Man animated show to Batroc in the Marvel Video Comics to Miles Dredd in the Max Steel franchise, and roles in Dungeons and Dragons Online and Lord Of The Rings Online, Mark has a fascinating background as a professional musician, actor, and film director. He talks about being authentic, and the advantages you can find by engaging in life to find your motivations. Take a lesson from a voice of experience, and check out this episode with Mark Oliver!

Heather Dame is currently the VP of Atlas LA and heads up Atlas' west coast branch. Heather built Atlas' Animation department from the ground up, as well as had a close hand and partnership with other agents in developing the Los Angeles commercial, video game and promo/narration/trailer departments. She is passionate about developing talent and creating new business equally and enjoys the creative parts of "agent-ing" just as much as the problem solving and negotiating side. She believes in conducting business openly and honestly, and is one of the best in the business. Want to know what a top agent thinks? It's all here in Episode 30 of Let's Talk, with Heather Dame.  Brian Talbot: ... We've always been different. Randall Ryan: I find that's a good thing as a general rule. Brian Talbot: I don't know. I mean, who wouldn't want to be you? Randall Ryan: There are issues with being... Brian Talbot: Wow. Randall Ryan: I'm not even going to try to answer that. Brian Talbot: Talk about testing the friendship. Ouch. Oh, wow.   THEME MUSIC Brian Talbot: Heather Dame knows a good voice when she hears one, Heather heads up Atlas Talent’s west coast branch. Moving from New York to Los Angeles over a decade ago, she built the western empire full of some of the best voice actors anywhere. Heather built Atlas's animation department from the ground up, as well as having a close hand and partnership with other agents in developing the Los Angeles commercial video game, promo, narration, and trailer departments. She is as passionate about developing talent as she is about creating new business, from agenting to problem-solving to negotiating, Heather is open and honest, and she brings that approach to her business, that makes her the person every voice actor would love to have on their side. With so much to say and so little time to say it, Let's Talk Voiceover Heather Dame. Heather Dame: Hi guys. I don't think that I have ever had my bio narrated before. It's a very weird experience. Happy to be here. Brian Talbot: You're not the first. In fact, I've got a new side niche and it's called Bio Narration, and I'm trying to get represented for it.  So, uh…yeah. Heather Dame: Well, I would be better if you just gave me a pep talk every morning, I think. Brian Talbot: I can do that too. I can do that. I've been known to wash someone's dog for 20 bucks. It's a dog eat dog world. Heather Dame: Anyways, hi. Randall Ryan: So you've been in LA long enough now, because I still consider you a northeasterner. Heather Dame: Okay. Randall Ryan: ‘Cause, you and I met, if I would say to use the word met, literally like maybe a year after you came out to LA, and you were still going back to the Northeast to go camping and hiking and maybe you're still doing that. Heather Dame: I am. Randall Ryan: How do you consider yourself at this point? Heather Dame: I'm a west coast person now. I mean, I go back and forth still, but I've been living out here for 10 years now. It's kind of crazy. I've had to actually shift my language more recently, because I'm like, "You know, we're new out here." And people look at me like they don't even know we were never in Los Angeles. That we only had started this agency out here 10 years ago. They think we've always been here. So to me, it's interesting. I am now fully west coast. I'm married. I have four step kids. My life is very full and it is absolutely west coast, but I go back to visit my family in New Hampshire and Boston all the time. And I go back at least once a year to go visit all my people in New York, since I agented there first and I lived there for seven years before I came out here. But I am firmly planted out here. They like it when I'm out here and helping the office operate. So yeah, I'd say I've fully acclimated to the west coast state of mind. Randall Ryan: No, I was just going to say, did you actually open the LA office? Because, I thought that there was like a small presence here and you kind of came out to really not only build it up, but do the VO aspect of it. Heather Dame: No. So Atlas has been open since 2000 in New York.  The owners of the company, John and Lisa, when they opened Atlas, they did a lot of promos and commercials and radio imaging and all of that jazz out of New York and across the country. And actually one of the owners of the company, John Wasser, had been going back and forth for years before they moved me out here, just coming and staying in hotels, just like a Willy Loman of voiceover if you will, pitching a lot of trailer talent. So he really developed a lot of our trailer talent from the ground up, but we never had an actual presence out here in the other areas of voiceover or an office. And so, I was the first man on the ground out here in a Los Angeles office. John came back and forth and still does to this day, actually. But they asked me to basically build up the animation game, as well as help develop the commercial department in Los Angeles and help build the whole office from the ground up. It was just me and a part-time assistant in a small office space when we started and we've had four office expansions since, and now we have seven full-time employees out here and most of our company’s bicoastal. So it's grown over the course of time, but we did have that presence in promos and trailers in that world, but we did not have that presence yet in animation and games and commercials in Los Angeles.   Randall Ryan: Right. Brian Talbot: So how did you break the doors down to get into animation and games? I mean, those are some pretty sturdy doors. Heather Dame: It was a lot and we took it one day at a time. So I don't know if you guys are aware of Michael Leon Wooley, I like to call him like LA animation Talent Zero, for us. When I was still in New York, he really wanted to get into animation. He booked the Princess And The Frog and he asked me to set him up with meetings. And so, John and I just started cold-calling people asking them to take meetings with him, and that's kind of how it started. And people met him and they loved him and they started hiring him. And so, he was actually on the west coast before we were, interestingly enough. Heather Dame: And so, we just started calling people. John really helped me. I was a brand new agent. I had been doing promos in New York and I’ve been doing it for, you know, maybe eight months to a year, and I'd started succeeding and he turned around and he was like, "Build animation." I was like, "Wha…what?  You want me to do what?" Like, "Yeah, you should build an animation department." And so, he helped me and Lisa helped me and we just started calling people and setting up meetings and we introduced ourselves one person at a time.  And there was a lot of talent who came with us from the beginning. Hynden Walch came with us right away as well. Jim Cummings, Roger Rose…you know, there's a lot of people who started the agency with us in Los Angeles and really helped us build it brick by brick. That's why I think it's funny, I can't help but call us like the little engine that could, even though I get that's no longer how people view us.   Randall Ryan:Right.   Heather Dame: But I think that perspective helps on a daily basis, to keep doing your job and view it with fresh eyes and feel positive and continue to always be looking for “how do I continue to build” and not be jaded, which I think a lot of agents are. You know, it's a tough job. Randall Ryan: Yeah. It is. Heather Dame: It truly is like, it truly is. And I think a lot of people, until you walk in those shoes, you don't really understand how difficult of a job it is. You wear a lot of hats and a lot is expected of you, more than you could ever imagine is expected of you. I mean, honestly we just called people one at a time. Andrea Romano was one of the first meetings that I took, and very funnily she said to me something that shaped the way that I helped build Atlas and our roster out here was, she said to me, "I don't need you to have a hundred people on your roster. I need you to have one great person and they can book the job. I'd rather you send me one great person than 20 mediocre people who aren't ready and aren't right for the job." Randall Ryan: Oh my God, no kidding. Heather Dame: And it really…because, I was like, “I don't have people yet.” She said, "Who else do you represent?" She had met Michael Leon Wooley, was hiring him on Batman: The Brave And The Bold, loved him, and that was the moment she said, "Who else do you have?" And I sat in that meeting, and I wasn't sure what to say and I said, "No one yet."   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: And that was her response to me. And it changed the way that I viewed how we were going to operate and what worked and what didn't. And so I no longer felt like…I felt like it was okay, I'm going to sell the people that we have and develop the people that I find. And we're going to do it slowly and surely, and not too quickly, and make sure that we're doing it in a curated, thoughtful, organic way that it's not just about signing on everyone you can and throwing spaghetti against the wall.  It's going to be more methodical and slow and building. And so, I think that is why we've sustained and built the way we have over the course of time. Because, a lot of people, I think they think, just get as many clients as possible and throw spaghetti against the wall and see what happens.   Randall Ryan: Right.   Heather Dame: And then that creates a very different way of operating that I don’t think helps everybody succeed in the long term. Randall Ryan: No.   Heather Dame: We have the philosophy at Atlas, we have the reputation that it's hard to get signed with us.  And I think the reason for that is that when we bring someone on, everybody agrees.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: Both offices, New York and LA, all the agents, even if that agent isn't going to service that talent, that you still want to make sure that, when the right project comes up for them and for that talent, that they're on board, that they want to service and support that talent and be on board with booking them. And so, it makes it more difficult to get signed with us, but it also means we have a very curated list that is very well supported by multiple agents. And that's never really just one agent that the talent can rely on for their business. So they're more diversified across both coasts and across the full agency, if that makes sense. Randall Ryan: That makes a lot of sense. And the one thing that I've always really admired about you, and this is coming from a director's point of view: one of the things that has driven me nuts about a lot of agents and a lot of agencies, is you go to them and you say, and you have a very specific character description, "I need this." And the tendency of a lot of agencies is to say, "Oh, well, I need to send you.." I'm going to pick a number out of a hat.. "12 people, because you need to know that I have these people here." Brian Talbot: 12? You're being really generous for most agents. I got to tell you. Randall Ryan: Well, my point being that they may have three or four people that legitimately fit that character description, and yet they'll send a larger number. I don't know whether it's to show the talent that they're working for them, but it's almost like, did you read the character description? And that is the one thing that I've always really admired about you, two things: one, that I can come to you and say, "Heather, this is what I'm looking for." And that's what you send me. You don't send me like, “ehhh, here's someone maybe you should know about.”  And that you also have always been very generous with saying, "Keep me in the loop. But if you need to contact somebody to talk about a project or whatever, that's fine. Just keep me in the loop." Which I respect and do. Is that something that is more…is that your philosophy, is that an agency philosophy?  Who drove that? Heather Dame: Well, I think how you lead is how people gives them the chance to be more creative and find their own way with things, and have the room to grow and find their own talents, if you will. So I think that is specifically a style I have. However, I have to give credit to the owners of the company for giving me such autonomy and space to really grow as an agent and play to my strengths, that they gave me the opportunity to develop that way of operating, if that makes sense, because no one had done animation before at our agency, or games. And so, it is such a different skillset that I had to learn that market and had to learn the talent and learn the skillsets behind it.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: And that was something; I would go to classes, I would go to sessions. I did all sorts of things to figure it out, because I had learned the trade of promos when I first started and that was their trade. So they could teach me how to do that in promos and how to look at that from that perspective. But the piece that is from the agency is that, because the agency started out with such a heavy promotional department and that world, something that most people I don't think recognize about that area of the world, unless you work in it, is that is a highly pitched business. It's all relationship based. And those aren't opportunities that just... It's not like a promo producer has a spot that they're working on for one of their shows. And just the way an animation casting director or video game cast director will reach out to lots of people, because they need lots of good options from around town, from multiple agencies.  Promo producers tend to actually just want to reach out to one agent as long as they can fulfill their needs.   Randall Ryan: Mm hm.   Heather Dame: And so that, business is very much solely based on relationships and the ability to book those jobs. So it is fully pitched. So you can't expect, you can't become an agent in promos and expect your phone to ring, it won't and the money certainly won't come in either, you have to go get those relationships, you have to go build them. And then when the projects come in, you have to book them and you have to continuously do a great job for that person, so that over the course of time, your hope is that 20 years in you have an exclusive relationship. And there's quite a few exclusive relationships in that world. So that's, a bit of, if you're talking about what comes from the company or that's a bit of what I think you're talking about where that stems from for me, is that viewpoint on agenting.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: I don't view it as I've got a roster, you should call me. Randall Ryan: Right.   Heather Dame: I view it as a very curated experience, that experience I bring to each buyer and each client over the course of time and the job I do for them.  Not only do I have to call them first and build that relationship, that's on me, not on them, but once I do that as well, then I also have to do a great job and curate lists and curate. Because, in the long term, the way I'm going to be able to...When we started out, we had a couple big name people, but for the most part, we developed a lot of our roster from the ground up…   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: …and to where they are today. And we have some really successful people we built from the ground up, in partnership with them. And how you do that, like how do I send you someone completely unknown, and you trust me that they're going to be able to hold their own in a session. Well, I show you that I can be trusted   Randall Ryan: Right.   Heather Dame: And that I have that ear. And so that's, a bit of my strategy, if you will, as an agent, now I'm giving you my agent secrets. Randall Ryan: Again, from my perspective, I massively appreciate that, because you're right. If I send you something and you send me somebody in there like, "Hey, this is somebody I think you should listen to." I know you're not blowing smoke up my skirt. Like, "No, actually I've looked at what you're looking for, I know something about this person, or I maybe know a lot about this person. I think they could do this." And whether they get booked or not, I can't even think of any time that you've sent me something like that and it's like, "Yeah, no, not that person." They've always been in that wheelhouse. And that's kind of the point, isn't it? Heather Dame: Yeah. I mean, it is the point. It should be the point. Randall Ryan: Yeah. It should be the point. Heather Dame: It should be the point. I think that's also where I have fun. I enjoy that process of it. The casting and the developing and learning the nuances and building those relationships with people and that's the part that I really love. Do I have to also be good at the negotiating part and the navigating part and all of that?  I know how to spin with the best of them, because I'm an agent, it's part of my job. I know how to do all of those sort of things, but I really like live in the casting space. That space of it is what makes this job come to life for me.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: And so, I enjoy it as well, so that's a piece of it that I feel like is something I can uniquely bring.  And a lot of times when I'm selling the agency I'm also selling my ear and my development style, and not just "Here's some people pick one." And I think that is a distinction that some people are really great at, and some people are not. And it is a distinction between different types of agenting, as well. Like I think it's more important in the game and animation world than it is in the commercial world, for instance, where it's a little bit more like a roulette game trying to win one of those jobs. And it’s not always the way that they audition, is it's not always something they... Like what you read on your commercial audition, is essentially usually what they're going to expect in the booth. And when you read for an animation or game audition, they're going to expect five other things from you in the booth when you get there. And so that's, the complicated way in which animation and games, since it casts remotely now, that's the difference it makes, is that the casting director has to figure out either they know you and they've worked with you in the booth before and that's what makes it easier to pass you forward, right?   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: I mean, in some senses, you get a new person, you listen to their demo or listen to their audition rather and you love it, but you don't know their name. My guess, is the first thing you do is ask, "Oh, which agency is that person with? Have they done anything? Who are they? Can I trust them in the booth?" Because, what you don't want to do as a casting director is put them through, have them hired and then have them walk in the door and not be able to perform what's expected of them, because what's on the MP3 is only the beginning of what's expected of them in the booth. Randall Ryan: Again, I can only speak from my own perspective. If somebody nails an audition, you can kind of tell when somebody's cobbled something together most of the time, at least with auditions that I send out, and there's that fine line that you have to do of, you want to give enough copy to be able to let the person stretch and do what it is that they do without being “you're going to be in the booth for an hour just doing an audition,” which I think is unconscionable from my perspective. But I almost always try to give enough copy or enough leeway or, "Please do this two or three different ways, if you think you can bring two or three different things to the table."  If somebody can do that, they're probably going to be just fine. The people who really are too green to be able to walk into a booth and do it, somewhere in that audition, I'm not going to say a hundred percent, because I've had those things happen, but high nineties, if you do the audition well, and if they turn something around, you can kind of tell, no, this person knows what they're doing.  Whether they’ve got 50 credits under their belt or zero kind of doesn't matter at that point.  They can do the gig. Heather Dame: Yes. If you're expecting them to only do that one voice and that one character.   Randall Ryan: Fair point.   Heather Dame: And for me at least, in animation I think it's probably a bigger deal than it is in games. And it comes up more in animation than it does in games, but in animation, they usually want you to cover three characters, at least two. And there's so much more nuance I think in long term, if you're playing a character over a full series and they're hiring you for five seasons of a character and you're meant to breathe life into it. So maybe the context difference is animation versus games, because I've definitely had people who audition really well who are not as good in the moment in the booth, and I've had people who don't audition as well who are amazing when they get in the room.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm. Heather Dame: So it's interesting, because from my perspective I see both of it. I think you kind of get the best of everybody, you know?  Like you're not being sent the people who aren't ready for you yet…   Randall Ryan: Right.   Heather Dame: … I think in a lot of circumstances.  But I have people that I have to work with that I really, like they have to. I would rather them audition less but come into our booth every week, because from home they're just not able to create what they can when they're in person with people. And it's interesting, so I know that they're more talented than their auditions. So that happens too on my end, is that there are people who are more talented than their auditions. And I have to try to eke that out of them, teach them the skill of auditioning and specifically from home, so that they can actually put forth what they can do on those MP3 files.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm. Heather Dame: It's an interesting world, because, I mean I'm glad that it's opened up, because that opened up an opportunity for us to develop people. And I don't think we would've been able to, if it were a closed group of people working in animation and games.  But it is an interesting shift in the industry in general of how it has really turned to be more from home in general, and how much of the audition process and booking process happens all remotely without anyone meeting each other.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm. Brian Talbot: So that's, a really interesting part of what we all go through, especially as an actor, not only is it the self-direction and figuring out how to self-direct from a home audition, but then most of the work, I mean, the story is always that all the animation and game work has to be done in LA.  How accurate, how inaccurate, what kind of recommendations do you have for voice actors on that? Heather Dame: So, Randy actually does a lot of his stuff from home studios. He's fine with that. And there are a couple people who do do that. And so, there's no hard and fast rule. Which is why I'll never say never, but from my experience, talking to many casting directors, as well as bookings and submitting people from out of town and I mean, we represent people across the entire country, as well as we have a full department in New York that are local New York people, as well as our local LA; it's kind of like a Venn diagram of people that do different things. The thing that I tend to tell people as the reality, is that you can book a couple of jobs in animation and games not living in Los Angeles, but if you want to build a full long-sustaining career, you have to be there. It's where the opportunities are. It's where the relationships are. Those moments are built in the booth with people.   Brian Talbot: Right.   Heather Dame: The relationships and the connections happen in person. And the majority of the jobs prefer people to be in person. And even in the context where someone's auditioning from out of town but would fly in, where they would fly in for the booking, that I've even seen over the course of time. Because, you have to remember, we started with no one in Los Angeles. We started with the New York office, and I had a bunch of Broadway people there. So what do you think I did? I used them.   Brian Talbot: Of course!   Heather Dame: That's the first thing I'm going to do is like, I'm going to make animation people out of these Broadway people. That's where Michael-Leon Wooley started.  They're amazing actors. We can teach them the skill set. Andrea Romano even came and taught a class for me in New York, which she hadn't done in years, when she heard I was looking to train them up. She's like, "I'll come, if you set it up and meet those people and help them." So that's how I started off doing it. So I've done that for many year.s and I've done it with some limited success here and there. But what I've discovered is that most jobs in animation, they're just unpredictable. It's very organic how things happen.  It may be that at four o'clock Nickelodeon is writing to me saying, "We have this audition for tomorrow. What are your ideas?” Or “We want to see this person, anyone else?"  And I just name the other person, and they get a time tomorrow and they gave us two times.  And so now, if you're in New York, what if you were the perfect person for that? They're not going to see you, and you dismiss that opportunity. Ultimately, people also like you would basically have to fly blindly no matter what. Meaning like, they may say on Monday “we need them on Wednesday,” and now you're booking a thousand-dollar plane ticket. Your cost of your travel is more than the session itself. And there are just a lot of jobs that look that way. And so, the reality is that if you really want to be in it, if you really want to build a career in it, you have to be where it is, and it's here. If, you want to book some jobs…   Brian Talbot: Yep.   Heather Dame:  …absolutely you can do that from afar. You have to find an agent who's willing to do that with you and willing to put you out in the places that it will work, but I haven't seen, and I've seen a lot of this.  Like I have to say, I have so much context for this conversation and I'm not going to talk about details of different talent, but I have so much context for this conversation. I've tried it every which way. And at the end of the day, I have just not seen someone build as full of a career as they could. I even have people who work quite a bit in animation out of Nickelodeon in New York, and still can't succeed. And there's a girl I know that if she came out to LA would be all over the place, everybody would be using her in town. She's so amazing.     Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: And remotely, she just doesn't build that career.  But she has other careers, and so she's living her best life. She's perfectly happy.   Randall Ryan: Right, right.   Brian Talbot: Right.   Heather Dame: We've had this discussion and I'm not disappointed either. She's living the life that she wants to live and doing the work that she wants to do, and I'm able to help her get animation while living in New York as well. And that's awesome. And we love her, and she's one of my favorite talents, and she's just such a kind, awesome human being. And she's working a ton as well in New York, but it's still not the same as it would be if she lived in LA.   Randall Ryan: Right.   Heather Dame: And that's just a reality. And I don't think that's going to change, because animation, the magic happens in the room a lot. It's a lot of improvisation and chemistry and moments that people are creating together.  I think, games often are a little bit more isolated in how they cast and how they book. I think that's the reason a lot of those have been more willing to do remote sessions and do things from New York or LA or book a studio or the like, but for animation, I don't think that's going to die anytime soon. I think that there's something that makes animation just shine when it's done that way.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: And there's a je ne sais quoi about breathing life into it, in person. The places where they're actually, interestingly enough, splitting people up is where they have a celebrity on the show and they're shooting something in…Toronto.   Brian Talbot: Got it.  Yep.   Heather Dame: And so, when you're working with that kind of context, sometimes they still will bring in the rest of the cast and have someone come in and just read those lines or have people scratch, people who are other members of the cast scratch that person's lines.   Randall Ryan: Right.   Heather Dame: Because they still want the magic of that. But they're not going to replace their lead role because they booked a series regular, and now they're shooting in Toronto. And so they have to pick that person up later in the ADR phase.  But there are some animated series that will do it, one person at a time. And usually it's for those sort of reasons.  But I'd say a lot of animated series, they have a regular day and tim, they record with their cast, and they try to stick to that as much as they can. There's obviously lots of circumstances around which they will change that around. But typically, let's say you book a lead role in an animated series, typically you know that you're recording every Tuesday from two to six, you're on hold for it indefinitely.   Brian Talbot: Sure. Heather Dame: And then they, depending on how prominent your character is, they book or release you for that hold. So that's generally how they operate, though they break that rule a lot, because of the amount of celebrities and name talent.  And technology is such now that where they feel more comfortable with the sound quality of studios that aren't in Los Angeles, and they can control that better. They are more willing to do it, but it tends to be the exception to the rule, not the rule itself.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: And in games, it depends on the game, but games that are really looking for more interaction and acting and are a little bit more cinematic are starting to do the same thing.  Like Blizzard will do that. Andrea likes to bring people in together…   Randall Ryan: Right.   Heather Dame: …and have them interact, and have their characters interact. And I saw you guys interviewed her. So that's, probably where this came up in your podcast, was with her. She does that quite a bit. And right when she thinks it's really going to make a difference to the product. And I think it's really smart, and I've heard my actress say, it's amazing, they love it. Like it is some of the best work they feel like they've done. Brian Talbot: It's so much more helpful as an actor to be able to interact, as opposed to just trying to create it all in your head and hope that you're getting to where you need to be. Absolutely. Heather Dame: Yeah. Randall Ryan: And they also do things like table reads ahead of time, which, that's one of the lovely things about working for a company of that size with those kind of pockets, is that they have the opportunity to do that. And I think that kind of bespeaks a little bit to some of the other things you're saying about how and why people outside of LA sometimes get the work is when budgets are not where you can actually say, "Hey, let's go to a studio for four hours and everybody's going to show up and let's do this, and we're going to do this every Tuesday." As you said. That's the other side of things, but gaming budgets are continuing to come up.  I know that for the stuff that I do, and some of this is because I've pushed for it for a long period of time, but I'm now seeing a lot of budgets that are coming up above scale. And even non-union things that are coming up above scale. And so, when you start getting things to that point, now you start to have that ability to do more ensemble stuff or to take that kind of time. And I wonder if that's kind of part of it, is that it is just that animation, this has just been the world that they've lived in, and games started from literally people in cubicles saying, "Can you do a voiceover?" And…I mean they started from a very different place.   Brian Talbot: Yeah.   Heather Dame: Yeah. So they're valuing what the actors bring to the table and to their scripts more than ever, I would say. Randall Ryan: Yes. Heather Dame: In gaming as well, because of the storylines they're creating.  But at the same time, what they were creating when they were doing it from their desk was very different. They were just like, "Smash."   Randall Ryan: laugh   Heather Dame: Like it's a very different thing now, when you're really having the full actor. It really is, it was a different beast. Voiceover looked different.   Randall Ryan: Oh yeah.  Oh yeah.   Heather Dame: If the game looks really rudimentary, like it used to, no one's going to balk when it doesn't sound like a real actor, because the game is rudimentary.  The whole thing has that kind of context to it.  But now everything looks so real to life, and it looks like a film, and the storylines are so intricate and games run the gamut.  Not everything is a war game. There's so many differing types of storylines and investment that the people playing the game have to have in order to keep playing your game and keep giving you their money, that you really do have to have real actors in there, who are really bringing something to the game that gets the people playing it invested, that they are in it with those people. It's also why you have such huge fandom in that world. Randall Ryan: Oh yeah. Brian Talbot: Yeah. And I think you just hit a really important point. It is about bringing acting back into voice acting, right? Heather Dame: It never left! Brian Talbot: Well, fair enough. But I mean, especially when games started out, it really was, it was go get Suzy or Jimmy down the hall.  We'll throw them in the booth and get a couple of sounds. But it really is now, I get asked from people, "I really want to do games and animation." I say, "Well, you need to go out to LA, and what acting classes do you take regularly?"   Randall Ryan:Right.   Brian Talbot: And they're like, "Well, no, but I've done some games. I've done some parts in games." And so, I'm like, "Unh-uh, that's not the way it works.”  It can't. It really is about being an actor first. Heather Dame: Yes. I like to tell people, because a lot of people do voices, a lot of the fans now... So what's an interesting trend that's occurring right now, is with technology, everybody thinks they can be a voiceover actor.   Brian Talbot: Yep.   Randall Ryan: Yep.   Heather Dame: Because all you have to do is build your booth, build it up and cool, I can go online and do something for 50 bucks and that makes me a voice actor. And so that takes away the emphasis on the acting, when they look at it from that way. And the reality is sure, you can go do someone's corporate video for 50 bucks online, and you can make that kind of money here and there and a little bit, but it doesn't make you a voice of actor in reality.   Randall Ryan: No.  Not at all.   Heather Dame: And you can also have a great voice, do many impressions, all sorts of things like that.  And that again, doesn't make you successful as a voiceover actor. Some of the most successful people we have, have really nondescript voices.   Randall Ryan:   Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: So when someone comes and says to us like, "I've got this great voice,” or “I can do all these impressions." And they start to do impressions, the reality is that's not what it's about.   Brian Talbot: No.   Heather Dame: Whether it's a commercial, promos…it doesn't matter what realm you're talking about. And in fact, I think it's interestingly enough, like promos and trailers, they require a really great deal of acting.   Randall Ryan: Mmm hmm.   Heather Dame: Because, it's really subtle and you have to connect to that copy. And it's pretty hard to connect to that copy. You listen to Scott Rummell read a trailer and he's connected to it. And if you were to look at that piece of trailer copy you could never produce what he produces and the emotion that he produces. You just couldn't, it's like brilliant.  And so, it's not even just in animation and games, it's across the industry, in every single aspect of it. There has to be an acting background and a connection to that script that you are reading, whether it's a commercial that you're selling for McDonald's or whether you're playing a lead role in an animated series. And it's one of those things where like in animation, it's very, these fans say, "Great, I can do all these impressions." And the thing I say to them is, "Cool, those jobs are already taken."   Randall Ryan: laughs Brian Talbot: Right? Yeah. So what would you do with the role? Heather Dame: Right, exactly. Like those jobs are already taken. Bart Simpson, it's already taken; someone already has that job. So they're not really casting for that. What we're really casting for is people who can look at a character and create, and bring that character to life off the script, have it live and breathe, create the scene around it, and interact moment to moment with that scene around it.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: And someone who can do that? And it's like a one man/one woman show in your head, you know?  And you create the entire thing and interact with it around you, and you breathe life into it that no one else can quite do. And the voice characteristic is just like a little brushstroke in your whole painting of your character. It's not the painting.   Brian Talbot: Oh, yeah.   Heather Dame: And so, it's that whole idea of “voice first” happens in trailers too. Get these guys with these really deep voices say, "I want to do trailers." And the reality is, you need to learn to be an actor first. Brian Talbot: Yep. Randall Ryan: Well, I think that's a holdover from radio though, because that's when the voice was the thing, and now it's acting first.  Voices can be, as you said, they're all over the map. I want someone with a high squeaky voice. I want someone with a reedy kind of... And actually you don't even necessarily think about that. I almost never give voice characteristic descriptions.  Almost never. It's all: what is the character, what does the character bring to the table there? The certain type of emotion, the mental aspect that they're coming from. Heather Dame: It's scene study, especially for the people who have gone to grad school for theater. Sometimes it takes them a minute to figure out how to harness their grad school abilities into voiceover. And I just look at them and I'm like, "It's scene study. It's the same thing. It's not different." Brian Talbot: Yep. That's exactly it. Heather Dame: It's not different at all. And they're like, "Oh, I get it now." You just spent a bunch of money learning this in grad school. And it's often the case with really well-trained actors too, that they need to learn the technical skill sets of how to take what they know as an actor and translate it into our medium as well. So I find I really enjoy finding really great actors and then helping them learn how to translate their skill in, or comedians and helping them learn to translate their skill in. That's typically how I find and develop talent, actually.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: Like that's kind of the modus operandi of how I've done it, is find a really great actor and then they can learn the skillset. Randall Ryan: How do you typically find talent? I mean, I know there's the whole ‘people send you reels’ and I don't want to get into that kind of stuff. Heather Dame: There's a thousand ways. There's no right way. I mean, we have a guy right now who we found, who's just a cold email he sent.  We took a listen to his demo and we're like, "Well, let's meet with him."   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: And he is doing really well. So there's no right way. There's definitely winning the lottery can exist, you catch someone, an agent, in the exact right moment in the exact right day where they're like, "I have a minute to click on this demo." They click on it. And if it presents as an opportunity to their roster in that moment of something that we don't book, because that's what you're looking for, right? So when you submit to an agent, and I try to say this to people, like an agent doesn't respond to you or I don't respond to you, don't view it as a negative feedback on your talent. What it means is that you, right now and what you bring to the table, doesn't present as an opportunity to me and our roster right now. So it may be that your category and what you bring to the table is already something I have a couple of people in that category.  But if you're coming at me with something unique and something different that we don't book, and I've been getting that spec all the time and we're just not booking it, that's going to be really interesting to me.  Even if you're a little bit more raw and you need more training, but you're a great actor and you fit this spec that I don't book, I'm like, "Okay, cool. I will spend more time with you and help you develop these skill sets and send you to the right coach and do all these things to help you."   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: Because a year from now you'll be booking those jobs for me.  Randall Ryan: Right.   Brian Talbot: Yep   Heather Dame: And it's a category, it's found money for both of us, because if we're not currently booking it, we don't currently have it on the roster, that presents as an opportunity to me. So it's the same thing as when I'm pitching business.  At the end of the day, when you go and try to sell something to someone, you do it as genuinely as you can, in whatever way makes the most sense to you and what you're able to bring to the table, and it will either present as an opportunity or not.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: And that's really the key, right?  You're looking to present as an opportunity to someone, and you can't control what's on the other end.   Randall Ryan: No.   Heather Dame: So for me, it can be a cold email. It is much easier, honestly, to get me to listen to the demo, if you spell our names right. Randall Ryan: As someone who gets called Ryan all the time, I concur! Yeah. That's actually just a really good point, because I talk to people about networking all the time, and I've never really put it that way and I've not heard it that way, but that makes an enormous amount of sense. The fallacy of selling, of networking, is that you want to present your best foot.  You do, but you don't want present an incorrect picture, because you're going to get found out. So just go ahead and say, "Look, this is what I've done." I think that's just a great point. "This is what I've done. I would like to be doing more than this. I've done these small projects and I believe that I have the chops to do larger ones. It's just a matter of different scripts." That says a lot to somebody. Heather Dame: Well, it says to me, you know where you're at and you're going to work hard to get there, and that you're tenacious.   Randall Ryan: Right.   Heather Dame: There's a way of operating and personal responsibility you're taking in that moment, that shows me that you line up with the way that we operate. One of the things we have a reputation for is being extremely honest. And I wish I could say that was purposeful. It's like my default in life. It's my best and worst asset, is how honest I am. It's served me well so far in agenting. so we'll hope that will continue. I believe strongly in honesty, truth and reality, is if you can handle all of that and face it and look at it, then it gives you the power to choose what to do next and make a difference.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm. Heather Dame: But if an actor comes to us and asks us how they're doing, and the reality is that their reads aren't up to par and they're just not quite hitting, and they do need to do some work on their reads, we're going to tell them that. And if they don't want to hear it, what I've seen over and over again is they don't do the work and they don't succeed.   Randall Ryan:Right.   Heather Dame: But when you have an actor who takes a look at that and says…no one wants to hear it, right?  First and foremost, no one wants to hear that. Like, that's just the reality.   Brian Talbot: Sure.   Heather Dame: That's not a circumstance an actor wants to hear/   Brian Talbot: Yeah.  Yeah, yeah.   Heather Dame: Bbut if they can take it and internalize it and look at it and say, "Okay, well now that I know that these are the things that are preventing me from booking, what am I going to do about it?”  And that gives them some power and control, which actors rarely have. It gives them something; it give them a way to move forward and deal in that reality. I also believe strongly that actors have a lot of responsibility to do a lot of the networking. And I say this a lot.  I feel like an agent and talent, the relationship should be a partnership. It shouldn't just be that I'm doing the pitching and then I deem whether or not you get those auditions, and I send them in and you either book it or you don't. And I don't tell you the information.  Randy, that would be back to your point earlier. That would be the reason why I'm comfortable with you building relationships with our talent, as long as you keep me in the loop, so I can make sure they get paid properly and all that jazz.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm. Right.   Heather Dame: For me, I want to make sure the business part is there, but I don't begrudge you wanting to build a relationship with the talent you book with us. And I tell them up front, the new talent you book with us, I tell them, "Randy likes to have a conversation directly with you. If he forgets to CC me, loop me back in." Randall Ryan: Yes. And I tell them that too. Like if I don't send it to Heather or Maria or whoever, you don't even have to ask me, just put them on there.   Heather Dame: Yep.   Randall Ryan: It might have been an oversight, but it doesn't matter. Just always bring them in. I'm not trying to go behind anybody's back, so please bring them in so we're all on the same page and then everybody's cool. Heather Dame: But that's a part of me saying I'm comfortable with the talent building relationship. In fact, I feel it's their responsibility.   Randall Ryan: Right.   Heather Dame: So you happen to be the person who casts them and directs them, but in a lot of the places in voiceover, oftentimes the person casting the talent and talking to us is not the person the talent's working with in the booth. Randall Ryan: Correct. Heather Dame: Right.  And that's, I'd say more often than not, which means that I have no relationship with the person who's directing them in the booth.   Randall Ryan: Right.   Heather Dame: If it's the director of the show, and in fact I've met those people at networking events and like, they think I'm so uninteresting. They like the actors.   Randall Ryan: laughs   Brian Talbot: aughs   Heather Dame: You're laughing, but literally, I thought that was a way to go for myself, because I was like, "Yeah, I'll build relationships with these people." That was something I tried at one point, and it turned out…because I'll go down any avenue and see how it goes as an agent.  And I was like, people aren't doing this, I should do that. And I did. And they were just like, "Cool. So you like negotiate contracts?"   Randall Ryan: laughs   Heather Dame: And then they would turn around to me, and almost inevitably they would have a friend who wanted to do voiceover, because they wouldn't know what to do with me and they would send me their demo.   Brian Talbot: laughs   Heather Dame: And that was it. Those people, but you put them in front of an actor and they're like, "Well I write for actors. I love actors. I'm writing this thing now, what are you doing? We're both creatives. And you make my scripts come to life. And isn't that so interesting."  And that's where they thrive, and that's the relationship the actor can build. And I can't build that for them.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: And those are their relationships, if they can hang on to them and build them. So those people will go from show to a different show, to a game company to, you know, they'll have a career.  Annd those actors may get to follow them if they build a relationship with them. I do view it as a full partnership. It's not only my job to build that relationship and get those auditions.  But it's also your job to build a relationship on your end. I basically view my job as getting the opportunities and then decreasing the competition.   Randall Ryan: Mm hmm.   Heather Dame: If you were just put it as simply as possible.    Randall Ryan: laughs   Heather Dame: Those two things are a key aspect of booking jobs in voiceover for your actors as an agent. But then, the actor can really make a difference, because if the person on the other end there, the director, knows them and worked with them on another project, they're going to want to hear their read. And then if you get in front of people, you can book the job. Brian Talbot: That's incredibly sound advice from someone who really knows what she's talking about. I kind of wish there were more people out there like you, Heather.  We really appreciate it. And we appreciate the time you've given us today. And we also appreciate that you're incredibly busy. So, Randall? Randall Ryan: Brian Talbot, BT. Brian Talbot: Heather. Heather Dame: Bye guys. Thank you so much. Randall Ryan: Thank you Heather. As always! Brian Talbot: Thanks so much. Bye. Heather Dame: Bye. Brian Talbot: Heather Dame, Atlas Talent. Enough said. Let's Talk Voiceover is hosted by Randy Ryan, owner of Hamster Ball Studios, delivering the world's best talent, virtually anywhere. And me, Brian Talbot, actor and all around creative guy. If you have comments, questions, ideas for other show topics you'd be interested in hearing, or you just want to let us know what you think, you can reach us by sending an email to bt@letstalkvoiceover.com, or go to the website at www.letstalkvoiceover.com. That's www.letstalkvoiceover.com. Hit us up on the social sites, the streaming sites. Thanks for listening to Let's Talk Voiceover. We'll talk again, real soon.

In Episode 29, we have a blast talking with voice actor Christopher Corey Smith. If you don't remember Christopher as “third guy from the left who screams when he blows up,” you may recognize him as Luke Skywalker in “Phineas and Ferb Star Wars”, The Joker in the Lego Batman games and movie, doubling for wrestlers in WWE Smash City, one of many “Digimon” voices, or other titles you might know include Hearthstone, Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat vs DC, World of Warcraft and literally over a hundred other games. Tons of TV voice acting credits as well, including Ingress, Hero Mask and Marvel Future Avengers. He's a pretty freakin’ experienced voice actor and pretty freakin' fun to talk with, so plug in and hit play as we talk voiceover with Christopher Corey Smith.